Ranking the Characters

Games Sentinels of the Multiverse
41

Zach Randolph and Dirk Nowitzki play the same position, and are vastly different. While baseball or hockey may have been a better comparison, I know basketball far better. Although I don’t necessarily agree with the stat weight, PER effectively places each player against each other to determine who is “best”, although there are other factors that go into determining who is better (team, coach, personality, etc). I would argue that Kobe Bryant brings something totally different to the table than John Wall, although they play similar positions (Shooting and Point Guard respectively). Football may have been a better, but again, not my Matt Forte ;).

I don’t think people need to agree to have a discussion about who is best, in fact not agreeing is better, that means that the creators did their job in balancing the game so multiple people have fun playing different ways. If people don’t think there is a best, that is fine too. My argument wasn’t to saying thinking they’re all perfectly balanced, it was simply to illustrate that a disagreement of opinion doesn’t mean anyone is wrong :).

I don’t watch baseball, sorry. I kid, I kid. Although I am a huge Brodeur fan.

I’ll keep it on track, I’m sorry :(.

42

It's cool not trying to scold.  I've just seen variations on this argument here like 4 times. I get it, some people don't like this kind of list.  What I don't get is why they then go onto such lists to complain rather than just ingoring them (that is not an invitation to explain why).

43

I can understand regular Bunker being on the list, but I generally have good success with him. Adhesive Foam Grenade is an insanely useful card. He's also a beast with Turret Mode, Flak Cannon, and Grenade Launcher. I tend to not prioritize Omnicannon. If I don't have anything else, and have managed to build up a lot of cards, then sure. Bunker is also one of the few heroes that can take an equipment from his trash and put it directly into play. I'm a little biased since Bunker was the first hero I played, and I just associate him with the game. I do agree that G.I Bunker tends to be a bit more consistently useful. Panzer Buster is situational, but man is it useful in those situations.

 

I also tend to rate DW Fixer higher than regular Fixer. I don't generally have too much trouble sacrificing cards since in most situations, the only style I'd want to permanently keep out is Grease Monkey. It's generally the tools I try to hang onto, except tire iron. Also, Bloody Knuckles is just fantastic with DW Fixer. You get the perks and can avoid the consequences. Even if he has a slow build, that extra two damage really pays for itself.

44

On Phantaskippy's Fanatic.

It is important to note that no hero has a better self heal than Fanatic.  10+ Hp that triggers exactly when you need it?  It is a crime to play in a way that limits your ability to use it.  The only HP that matters is your last HP.  Burn it.

The sheer volume of awesome cards she has makes it worth while, and the power?  OMG you can hit up anyone for that power, it is amazing.

Also you don't have to take the damage to use it.  Plenty of heroes can tank it for you.  There are so many shenanigans you can pull off, it is glorious.

With her PW allies it gets ridiculous.

I love hitting Desperation with Resolute, you get the draw and you finish your power, only missing your draw phase.  Sadly you don't skip your end phase.

My favorite thing about it is Fanatic has some really good second tier cards that you just don't play because you have better options, this power puts them in play for you, Chastise is the big one.

Take 3 damage to cause a target to not deal damage?  Many times you win that.

3 damage for a card in play is rarely a loss, and it opens the power up to any power in play, that is worth some HP cost, esp. for a hero that can dodge death.

 

 

45

I'm being discouraged from explaining, but what the hell. I'll say this and then gtfo. Tiers and rankings are dangerously close to all those threads on BGG claiming Fixer/Expat/Parse/whoever is super weak and underpowered, and they drive me crazy. It's like having an argument about which is the best colour.

I'm fine with having favourites, but I think it's pointless to rank or tier heroes because how effective they are is so dependent on so many external factors.

Sports players isn't even a good comparison, because one baseball game is going to be a fairly similar "environment" to another. Sure, maybe one opposing team's great at defence, one has a lot of fast runners, one does a haka to intimidate the other team, but you're still playing the same game on a similar pitch/diamond/court with the same rules.

With SotM, it's like playing All The Sports. Michael Jordan might be awesome at basketball, but could he beat Ali in a boxing match? Would Michael Phelps or Usain Bolt do better at clay pigeon shooting? Could a sumo wrestler do monster vaulting? How far can Rhonda Rowsey throw a discus? I'm not going to pick any one of them as the "best sportsperson" without knowing what the challenge is. Heroes don't fight in a vacuum.

46

And what's the problem with thinking X Hero is weak and underpowered and needs to go in the corner, cry and think what it did in the game? Sometimes ignoring people's opinion is the best policy, as they ignore the Hero's feelings.
Someone who used to post here got quit ignored in a different forum and not much happened.

Giving it a fighting game tier feel, the ranking looks something like this:

S: Team Leader Tachyon, Nightmist, America's Greatest Legacy, Legacy, The Scholar,

A+: Dark Visionary, Prime Warden Argent Adept, Parse, Wraith, Super Scientific Tachyon,
A: Argent Adept, The Sentinels, Prime Warden Haka, GI Bunker, Visionary,
A-: Omnitron-X, Sky-Scraper, The Naturalist, Young Legacy, Tempest,

B+: Haka, Ra, Unity, Kvothe Six String, Chrono Ranger, Tachyon,
B: Absolute Zero, Freedom Six Unity, Mr. Fixer, Dark Watch Expatriette, Freedom Six Absolute Zero,
B-: Freedom Six Bunker, Fanatic, Dark Watch Nightmist, KNYFE, Guise, Redeemer Fanatic,

C+: Prime Warden Fanatic, Expatriette, Setback, Rook City Wraith, Freedom Six Wraith,
C: Dark Watch Mr. Fixer, Captain Cosmic, Bunker, The Eternal Haka, Ra: Horus of Two Horizons,
C-: KNYFE: Rogue Agent, Prime Wardens Tempest, Freedom Six Tempest, Prime Wardens Captain Cosmic, Dark Watch Setback

 

At a glimpse, besides TLT, the list value highly Heroe's with damage mitigation, then deck manipulation, then utility/verstaility, then damage.
As a side note I'm really surprised at how low Captain Cosmic is.

47

They are weaker, but that is neither here nor there. The premise of your argument is “the game changes so no one can be good!” when things like action economy and card advantage can be an objective look at how well characters do. Even if you don’t take into consideration stuff like that, if Pulseglazer hates SST that is his prerogative, and he backed up with why he thought people should be ranked the way they were. More power to him.

I think you mistakenly left Rook City Wraith out of the “S+” category ;).

For serious though, is there any reason you left her off the S list? Impromptu Invention is generally regarded as one of the best cards in the game (as it’s a tutor and replaces its own play…and another play…) plus she is quite versatile.

48

 

Does your Nightmist ranking change if you're playing with a team with more ongoing/environment destruction, or would you say she loses any value? I'm partial to control, so my top three looks vastly different from your own, but my scale is weighted more towards locking down decks than damage. Although I haven't played Nightmist too often, the few times I have I've enjoyed her. I'll have to play her again on Friday to see how she plays in place of Fanatic in my super 4, but losing out on End of Days/Embolden/Chastise and a few other her cards might make me cry on the inside :cry:

49

 

Don't choose, play them both!  They work incredibly well together (I am a bit biased as they are my two absolute favorite heroes to play).

50

 

Unfortunately we only have 4 people (on Fridays), and Fanatic is usually the one to be switched out (although not always). Visionary/SST/Wraith pretty much are permanent members of the punch badguys in face club when we're play testing group comps. During a random game I'll probably pick her up as well just to give her a good run. 

51

Neizlabub - Ultimate set up Bunker can compete with anyone, but, and perhaps this is just variance, too often I go without Flak Cannon.  Grenade Launcher is okay, but without a boost, it really just pings most enemies.  I'm not a huge fan.

Skippy - That's a really interesting outlook on Fanatic, and one I haven't thought of.  I am now trying dufferent style Nightmist and more PW Fanatic on Friday.

Sheepz - I think regular Wraith is way better than Rook City.  More survival = more time to get out those great cards.  Wraith is occasionally really underwhelming in the early game, and I like the main one's ability to stay alive for when she's the best hero late game most.

 

 

52

I'm not saying that "no-one can be good", just that all heroes have their niche. Every hero has situations where they will shine, and situations where they are a liability, not matter where they are on your scale. I still maintain that the answer to the question "Which is the best hero?" is "It depends what you need".

How, exactly, are you objectively assessing that particular heroes are "weak" or "strong"? 

53

You just don't quit.

54

You mean I haven't changed my mind after the convincing argument of "nuh-uh, I can so say this hero is bad because basketball"?

55

If you don't enjoy ranking of characters, don't ruin it for the folks that do. Let them have their fun. (Hopefully you haven't already damaged their enjoyment enough to kill the thread… )

And feel free to start your own threads about how you don't like ranking of characters.

56

I think the best thing about rankings is how it reveals your playstyle, and seeing other people's rankings can cause you to question how you play a character.  Foote is really good as Redeemer Fanatic, I've tried playing her, I can't stand it.  But Foote also does great as Scholar, and the way he plays Scholar is pretty awesome, and is better than the way I played him.

One of my favorite evaluations is SST vs TLT, the war of Tachyon.

Where it gets interesting is with Research Grant.  Once the option of Research Grant arrives I ditch Experiment for Research Grant, both burn 2 cards from her deck, one puts cards into play or the trash, while the other puts 2 in hand, and then a card of your choice to the trash.

The crux of the decision is Goggles and Reflexes.  With cards that give you more play then draw the benefit of the odds for putting random cards in play starts to be offset by your inability to best take advantage of cards in hand to play.

While SST holds an advantage in cards in play during an average once through the deck, it is not a huge margin at all, and you lose control of what cards are played and go to the trash for that extra cards in play.

Obviously vanilla Tachyon loses, but the odds of getting Research Grant are actually better with TLT than SST, which for me puts the optimal use of Tachyon being TLT, with intelligent use of research Grant once it comes up.

Rapid Recon falls far behind Experiment, and behind Team Leader over the course of the game in cards in play, which hurts its advantage of cards to the trash.

Obviously I'm not going into the actual numbers here, just thought I'd give an example of the debate that is available.

57

With SS Tachyon, I also generally favor research grant over experiment, but there have been a few times, where I just needed to do an extra point of damage and gambled with experiment and paid off. Sometimes, that extra card play comes in really handy at the end game.

58

Rabit - yes, exactly.

Experiment vs. Research Grant is tricky. Let's assume I have two cards in hand I want to play and HUD Goggles. At that point, I almost always Experiment, extra plays being better than another card to play, usually.  If I then play those two cards and only have one left to play (no Nimble or Fleet), I'll then Research Grant.  It's worked out well, and SS Tachyon is almost certainly my best hero currently on the ap because of that ability to get either many extra plays or play just the right card.

I REALLY want to try PW and Redeemer Fanatic now.  Anyone have Redeemer advice?

59

Experiement vs. Research Grant, in my mind depends on what you're doing next turn.  If you're holding a hypersonic assault and a blinding speed that you're planning on using next turn, then you don't need the extra card draw that Research Grant gives you, and you can Experiment for the possible bonus.  But if you don't have anything good to do next turn, then use the grant to get you what you need.

 

Similar for Team Leader - you need to balance whether you have something to do next turn against whether the other players have something to do.  If your team needs your help, then you act as team leader.  But if they don't need you, then use your grant to get your own value.

 

The worst thing, in my mind, about Experiment is that I always want to experiment on random teammates, yet strategically the best choice is almost always to experiment on Tachyon.  This always makes me sad.

60

Experimenting on the Sentinels seems like a good choice. Almost all their cards are one shots.