This was kinda alluded to on another thread, but I figured I’d just make a new one. I think theJayMann posted something that maybe would answer this, but I didn’t really understand it, so if you’re out there, theJayMann, you can clarify for me =p.
Anyway, so who has the lowest hp is evaluated individually, one hero at a time, yes? And anything that happens “at the same time” in fact happens in the order the heroes choose, correct again? And one more assumption I’m running on, in situations of ties, heroes choose. Mmk. so moving on;
Wraith, Haka, Ra and Visionary are all at 20 hp. The only relevant cards in play are Smoke Bombs (wraith) and Ta Moko (Haka)
So suppose a Gene-bound Frost-hound comes into play and deals everyone 2 cold damage. Do you have to designate who is the highest and who is the lowest immidiately, or can you play it to maximum advantage: IE.
A) At 20, Haka is the highest HP. At 20, Visionary is the lowest HP. In this case, Wraith and Ra each take 2 damage. Visionary takes 0 (Redirected to Haka via smoke bombs) and Haka takes 1 (0 from the smoke bomb redirection, and 1 from the frost hound itself because of Ta Moko). Total damage to heroes = 5.
or B) At 20, Haka is the highest HP. at 20, Visionary is the lowest HP. Deal damage to visionary, redirect to Haka (damage nulled). Repeat process with Ra’s name in place of Visionary, and repeat again with Wraith in place of Visionary. Haka ends up taking 1 damage from being attacked directly by the Frosthound. Total damage dealt to hearoes = 1.
Ya, it’s mildly annoying at times when the lowest hp target is immune to that damage or has something like Synaptic Interruption waiting to go off (Smoke Bombs doesn’t give you a choice, you HAVE to redirect), but I’ve been able to pull off situations like B fairly commonly with them. I rarely hesitate to play Smoke Bombs when it’s in my hand.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but can’t you use Smoke Bombs to redirect the initial 2 damage that Haka would take from Haka (lowest hp) to Haka (highest hp), reducing it by one, and then reduce it by one again from Ta Moko? There’s nothing as far as I’ve seen stating that the highest hp hero and the lowest hp hero have to be distinctly different people.
The thing to remember in this case is that each instance of damage can only trigger Smoke Bombs once. You can’t redirect three (or more) damage from Ra to Haka to Ra or something.
I don’t think you can. I think that when the heroes have the same HP you can decide the order of the heroes, but you have to pick a single order. So, for the first attack (say, against Visionary), you can decide that Visionary is lowest and Haka is highest, and so on, but when you get to the attack against Haka, you can’t decide that Haka is both highest and lowest.
If you are saying you cannot be the lowest and the highest simultaneously does this mean that smoke bombs are useless when only the Wraith is left alive?
I have not seen that argued anywhere before, Chris/Adam save us from ourselves!
I specifically asked that question and was told by Chris that when only Wraith remains, Smoke Bombs continue to work, because Wraith is both the highest and the lowest. Therefore, I would assume that at any other point in the game, if someone is tied for both highest and lowest, you should be able to pick the same person for both.
Those are two very different situations. If there are two heroes, both with 8 lives, you have to choose which is highest and which is lowest; they are not simultaneously both highest and lowest, as you have two heroes so you have to make a choice. With just Wraith in play, she truly is just highest and lowest.
Actually, I would disagree. Haka is simultaneously the highest and the lowest, since he does actually have both the highest and the lowest HP. No one would take anything.
Nowhere is it written that if more than one hero is present, one hero cannot simultaniously be both the highest and the lowest. In most cases where logic is to take precedent in situations like these, you ask the questions separately, independent of what previous answers were given. Does Haka have the lowest HP? Yes, then he is the hero with the lowest HP. Does Haka have the highest HP? Yes, then Haka is the hero with the highest HP. Not exactly the correct method as, in these situations, you have to choose a single character to be highest or lowest or such; however, in that case you just take all yesses and choose one.
There’s no rule that says that Tempest’s “Localized Hurricane” (tempest deals up to 2 targets 3 projectile damage each) can’t hit the same target twice, and yet that’s what the SotM guys have said was the intention. I can’t believe it was their intention to allow a single hero to be both the highest and lowest hp simultaneously when there are more than one hero in play.
Well, it’s actually stated right there, it says 2 targets. If you tried to hit the same target twice, that’s just 1 target, not the 2 targets that it asked for (well, up to 2 anyway). The reason the first target is not valid as the second one as well is because it asked for two of them. If I ask for two dimes and you try to give me the same one twice, that doesn’t quite fly. The reason the former works is because it is asking for a target with the lowest HP, and separately a target with the highest HP. Just like it was stated elsewhere (though unofficially) if a card says “Deal 1 target 2 Melee damage, then deal 1 target 3 Psychic damage” it can refer to the same target. But asking for a certain number up front, or specifying words like “a second target,” or “another target” requires the other cards to be separate from the first.
This boils down to whether or not you think that the order of the heroes is determined once or twice. I see valid arguments either way. Thematically, I think it makes more sense if it the redirection has to go to another hero, though the fact that the redirection could still go back to the same hero if all the other heroes are incapacitated undercuts that sense.
Another angle to consider is that the redirection happens in a single sentence:
Whenever a villain card would damage the hero target with the lowest HP, redirect that damage to the hero target with the highest HP
The single sentence is suggestive to me of determining the order just once. The card could have been written: “Determine the hero with the lowest HP. If that hero were targeted, redirect the damage to the hero target with the highest HP”
Well, first, by the wording of the card, there is no determining who is the card with the lowest HP. Basically, all cards tied for the lowest are all the card with the lowest HP (e.g. if you have two heroes both with the lowest HP, and one is targeted, you can’t say “oh, we decide the other hero is the target with the lowest HP, so it’s not redirected”). Once that occurs, you then determine which card is the card with the highest HP, and redirect. Basically, the first is a check, and the second is a determine. If you had to place a static order on the cards that remain in effect for that card until it’s completion (adjusting only for changes to outside state while the card is still executing), this would allow for such a case to occur where tied for lowest allows preventing redirection from occuring at all. (One case where you may wish to do this may be where Absolute Zero is tied for lowest, and something deals fire damage to the lowest HP character). Unless this case is deemed valid, the only possible reason it can’t be the same card as before is that if redirect required the target to redirect to had to be a different card than the target redirected from. However, given the definition in the online glossary, there is nothing to imply this is the case (I haven’t yet checked Rook City glossary).
