Some questions

Hi everyone,

 

actually I don't want to write here, because my English lessons are long, long ago. Unfortunately, there's no German forum for SotM, so I'm sorry if your eyes start bleeding and head starts pounding while reading my posts. Or to say it in SotM terms: At the start of reading this post deal yourself 2 psychic damage, at the end of your turn, deal the writer 2 melee damage.  ;-)

 

I got some questions concerning damage, immunity and triggering effects. I already read here that dealing damage means, that HPs are actually reduced. So these are my questions:

 

1. If Nightmist uses her Investigation power, and the infernal damage could be completely avoided by reducing to 0, redirecting or being immune to damage, would she nevertheless draw 2 cards? I play it, that she doesn't, because it seems to me, that the two effects are linked. Similiar problem with Fanatics Emboldered (?), the card where another hero gets a second power in his turn.

 

2. Concerning Ra and the combo Flesh of the Sun God, Imbued Fire and Solar Flare: because of the same argumentation I played it, that Solar Flare would automatically be destroyed. Then I recently discovered another point why it possibly cannot work:

 

Imbued fire says "Change the damage type of damage dealt by hero targets to fire."

Flesh of the Sun God says "Ra is immune to fire damage."

So far, so good. Now Solar Flare: "At the end of your turn, either Ra deals himself 4 psychic damage or the card ist destroyed." Ra can only deal fire damage because of Imbued Fire. But the damage type on Solar Flare is not affected, correct?  So he cannot deal the demanded damage and Solar Flare will be destroyed.

 

So, I would be very glad if someone could help me with some clarifications, perhaps I'm absolutely wrong. :-)

 

In any case I love this game, it fullfills some of my childhood dreams. Love the flavour, the heroes, the universe. Hate the circumstance, that it's a pain in the ass, to get the hands on the game in Germany because I won't pay the shipping costs. So let's see, when I will be able to try out Shattered Timelines. *sigh*

 

 

Welcome! I think your English is great.

There are awesome rules clarifications to be found here, though they don't cover everything you've asked: Spiff's SotM Resources

 

Nightmist's Investigation power: Two separate sentences. The second one is not dependant on the first.

 

Embolden ("… either Fanatic deals them 2 radiant damage or destroy this card"): Two connected phrases. The second phrase IS dependant on the first phrase.

By the way, my reading of this particular use of 'deals' is that Fanatic must make the attack, but no HP actually needs to be reduced. 

If I'm wrong about that interpretation, there is a card in the Time Cataclysm environment, Fixed Point, which makes all cards indestructible, which might seem to make it possible that NEITHER of the phrases on Embolden could be fulfilled. A seeming conundrum, but my understanding is that destroying a card is really two steps – attempt to destroy and actually destroy – with indestructible cards stopping the second part.

 

 2. Concerning Ra and the combo Flesh of the Sun God, Imbued Fire and Solar Flare: because of the same argumentation I played it, that Solar Flare would automatically be destroyed. Then I recently discovered another point why it possibly cannot work: Imbued fire says "Change the damage type of damage dealt by hero targets to fire."Flesh of the Sun God says "Ra is immune to fire damage."So far, so good. Now Solar Flare: "At the end of your turn, either Ra deals himself 4 psychic damage or the card ist destroyed." Ra can only deal fire damage because of Imbued Fire. But the damage type on Solar Flare is not affected, correct?  So he cannot deal the demanded damage and Solar Flare will be destroyed. 

 

Again, by my reading of this particular use of 'deals', it is sufficient for Ra to initiate an attack of 4 psychic damage to retain Solar Flare, even if that attack gets changed to fire damage and then Ra is immune to it.

 

 

Thanks for the link, though I had already discovered it. Actually it was there, where it is said, that in order to deal damage you have to reduce HP. :slight_smile:

 

Nightmist's Investigation power: Two separate sentences. The second one is not dependant on the first.

 

Okay, I agree on this one, thanks.

 

 Embolden ("… either Fanatic deals them 2 radiant damage or destroy this card"): Two connected phrases. The second phrase IS dependant on the first phrase.By the way, my reading of this particular use of 'deals' is that Fanatic must make the attack, but no HP actually needs to be reduced. If I'm wrong about that interpretation, there is a card in the Time Cataclysm environment, Fixed Point, which makes all cards indestructible, which might seem to make it possible that NEITHER of the phrases on Embolden could be fulfilled. A seeming conundrum, but my understanding is that destroying a card is really two steps – attempt to destroy and actually destroy – with indestructible cards stopping the second part. 

 

Hm, never thought about this in that way. So in this case it's the good intention that counts, isn't it?  Although it would make some games much easier, somehow I  don't like the idea thematically. "Fixed point" seems to be a special case, where it could be intended to work that way. The card title seems to indicate that time stands still at this point, so the cards remain in play. Of course it's just a guess of mine as long as I don't own the expansion.

 

I would be happy to be convinced especially for Ras combo, is there any official statement about this? I hate having a bad conscience because I'm probably bending the rules. You know Jumanji and what happens to people who do so? :slight_smile:

 

 

Well, there is important difference between dealing and taking damage. If you have to deal yourself damage, but are immune or otherwise won't TAKE damage, you can still choose that option. Nowhere on the card does it say that you have to take damage this way.

 

On the other hand, if something happens that makes it so that you can't DEAL damage (Beat Down, Ethereal Bonds, Brambles, etc.) then you can't choose to deal the damage, and must destroy the card.

Hello:

I also live in Germany (although I am not German, and my German is waaaaay worse than your English. Well, even my English is worse than your English), and I know it can be difficult to find the game. It was for me too when I bought the core game, and it was even worse when I bought the expansions. At the end I bough everything in an online store called shop4de.com. It's from the Uk, but everything is in German on the site (good for you, bad for me), and the shipping cost is really cheap (1 euro!) On the other hand, the goods take like ten 10 days to arrive (even if they say that they take much shorter), and they do not have any way to trackt the package. And the customer service is not good. But I always got the games, and it was the only place where I could find Sentinels so... 

For the next weeks I will be checking their website very often :)

 

And regarding your question, I think that you are misreading this clarification:

 

damage dealt = hp were reduced
 
some cards have effects that trigger when damage is dealt. What happens if an
attack which would normally deal damage, is reduced or converted in some way
so that no target actually had its hp reduced?
If no hp were reduced, then no damage was dealt, so anything that would
trigger off of damage being dealt would not be triggered.
 
Note that this clarification only applies to sentences in passive voice ("When Ra is dealt damage ... "), and not to sentences in active voice ("Ra deals 4 fire damage"). I think I have never needed as much English grammar  as for playing SotM ... Not even in college!

exactly. You can deal damage to yourself without taking damage, but if it required you to BE dealt damage (or you are unable to deal damage) you can't.

 

Well, even the most Germans have problems with their language, me included, so don't mind. But it's good to hear, that my English isn't that bad as I thought. Seems to help that a lot of my boardgames are English, too. I can't bear some of the tranlations.

 

At the end I bough everything in an online store called shop4de.com. It's from the Uk, but everything is in German on the site (good for you, bad for me), and the shipping cost is really cheap (1 euro!) On the other hand, the goods take like ten 10 days to arrive (even if they say that they take much shorter), and they do not have any way to trackt the package.

 

I'll take a look at this site, thank you. If they also have the mini-expansions waiting for ten days or so is definitely much better than waiting several months until G> come to Germany. :slight_smile:

 

 Note that this clarification only applies to sentences in passive voice ("When Ra is dealt damage … "), and not to sentences in active voice ("Ra deals 4 fire damage"). I think I have never needed as much English grammar  as for playing SotM … Not even in college!

 

Okay, I think you're right, that this WAS the problem. I didn't make a difference between the two cases. One problem solved, thanks.

 

Why do you have to choose to destroy the card? Things like Ethereal bonds say you cant DEAL damage, but make no mention about not being able to attempt to deal damage. My understanding is that you choose to deal yourself four damage, but since you cant deal any damage this turn, nothing happens. As stated above, it mentions nothing about needing to have your HP reduced in that way to hold onto the card. It would be like using his base power on a target; it wont have any effect because he cant deal damage, but as far as i understand nothing stops him from using the power anyway (well except common sense). Or did I miss a rule?

 

I have been playing MTG for a few years now, and since most of the rules in this game are similar, I tend to default to how it would work in MTG if the specific instance isnt ruled or the rule is unclear in the situation. Sorry if that caused confusion.

Dealing damage can refer to either initiating an attack or causing HP to be lost. Ethereal bonds stops one from initiating an attack.

I originally argued for the idea that "cannot deal damage" forbids you from choosing to deal damage in an either/or choice, but I've started to wonder if this creates more questions than it is worth.  For cards like Solar Flare it seemed to make thematic sense that anything which could prevent Ra from dealing damage would also prevent him from maintaining the effect.

But I started to see alot of other cases where it made less sense:

  • The Matriarche/Enforcers (chairman deck)/various environment cards where the Hero must pay some cost (discard/destroy cards) or something deals them damage.  Just because the villain can't deal damage that shouldn't force you to pay the cost.
  • Wrest the Mind (Visionary), she is given a choice to redirect or not, one choice results in her dealing damage to the cards target and herself.  The wording is different, but if things like Solar Flare are restricted, it seems ambiguous whether this should be as well.  (I think it shouldn't be, but I don't have a great argument for why it is different)
  • Proverbs and Axioms (Scholar), you have the choice of regaining HP or dealing yourself damage and using a power.  Unlike Solar Flare, this is meant to be a choice between two positive effects (and in fact is optional if for some reason you don't like either).  I would allow Nightmist to use her base power even if she couldn't deal damage, so it seemed weird to restrict this just because there is an either/or choice.

Anyway, the short version is: I'm considering just treating "<card> cannot deal damage" as the same as "all targets are immune to damage from <card>" in my games.

That's how we play it. Equivalently: When this card would deal damage, deal no damage.

For the Ra combo, heres how I see it:

1) Solar Flare activates first. We choose to let Ra "deal" the 4 Psyc damage instead of destroying the card.

2) That 4 Psyc damage now converts to 5 Fire due to Imbued Fire.

3) Ra "deals" himself 5 Fire damage.

4) Because Ra is immune to all Fire damage, he loses no hitpoints.

5) Ra delt the damage. It just happend to be mitigated

Just because Ra is immune to the damage does not mean he cant be the target of the attack. He is immune to the concequences of the attack, not the attack itself, if that makes sense. There are cards that say specifically that a target must take damage for the effect to occure (cant remember names off top the top of my head). 

Looking at it another way, if the game is going to punish a player combo for mitigating damage in any form, it had better be extreamly clear that the damage needs to result in hit point loss, or I personally will rule in the favor of the player every time. There should be a semantic difference between "dealing" damage and "taking" damage

 

 

@Jenoolen: They have Shattered Timelines in http://www.shop4de.com right now! I have ordered mine today. They don't have any of the minispansions though. I have found them in a website based in Spain (http://www.planetongames.com/) (I have found everthing today!). I don't know how much will be the shipping cost for Germany, though. I wrote my german address as the delivery address, but I got a message saying that for international deliveries they calculate the shipping cost case by case. So I just used my brother's address in spain for the deliver, and I will pick up the good stuff next time I visit my family.I hope it will be soon, because boy I am sick of this weather... Snow at the end of March!

 

So I am really happy that I could bought everything ever published for this game. Except the promo cards. And I only had to order one thing in the uk to be delivered in Germany, and involve my family in Spain for the rest of things :P I hope you are lucky too and find the mini-expansions, but hey, at least you can order Shattered Timelines now!

 

Thank you very much for the info. I just decided to wait until I can get it here in Germany because of some other games, so my money bag could recover. :slight_smile: And then I'll wait for the SPIEL in Essen to get the mini-expansions and some promos. The longer you wait, the greater the joy, I hope.

 

I also can't stand the snow anymore. Today it feels like Christmas, just without a Christmas tree. Tempest, where are you? :wink: