The Best Hero Legacy. To good?

 Hi all,

    After all the talk about "fixing" Mr Fixer, especially the argument that he wasn't "balanced", I decided to look at the statistics of the hero that is clearly not "balanced", Legacy.

 

Here are some win% from the wonderful Sentinels of the Multiverse Statistics Report, March 1st edition. The brackets show the standard deviation error on these percents using binomial statistics:

 

3-hero:  60%[2%]

4-hero:  79%[2%]

 

With Legacy on the team:

3-hero: 74%[5%]

4-hero: 88%[3%]

 

Legacy is also deadly to all of the Infernal Relics Villains, including Ambuscade.

 

Against these Villains: 95%[3%]

Against the rest of the Villains: 75%[3%]

 

So the question should perhaps be is Legacy to strong? And not is Mr. Fixer to weak?  ;0

 

p.s. Personally I am happy with having strong heroes like Legacy and weaker heroes like Mr. Fixer, I like the variety, but some of the people who complain about Fixer, seem fine with Legacy winning close to 90% of his 4-player games. 

 

 

 

 

 

SotM's Superman equiavlent too strong? Weird.

Keep in mind we still only have 250ish games per hero in the setatistics, which means an error margin of about 5-6% (if i extropolate right from what the math guys posted earlier)

 

Which means, that those percetages could still drop - until we get to the 500entries per data point (where wed be at a 2% error rate i think?) we these are entirely accurate yet. 

 

that being said, Legacy has been consistantly on top so... seeing him dropping considering is not something I would expect. Then again I didnt expect Cosmic Omnitron to jump up like he did...

I think the reason why people don't complain that Legacy is "OP" is that he doesn't do much of the damage himself. He's a support character, so all that strength goes to your teammates, who are hardly going to complain. More importantly, one does not notice it as much as, say, the damage-dealing done by Ra.

As it is, I don't think he IS OP'ed. Again, he's a support character, so you still have to rely on your teammates: in some ways, you are only as effective as your team is.

Another factor might be that Legacy is a fairly popular hero, so he has a greater number of games to his name, which might have affected the statistics somehow.

 

...Vyolynce also has a point. Superman has got to be the most overpowered hero in the comics universe, so yeah, I don't see a problem here, even if he werea little OP :))))

Guess it's no surprise that his evil version is being hailed as the scariest and most powerful villain to date. Legacy is supposed to be the leader of the team, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that adding him to the team increases the win rate.

Yeah, I think comparing heroes to each other isn't very fair, given that there are heroes like Legacy and Wraith out there. (Seriously, Wraith is insane - even after she was nerfed in the Enhanced Edition.)

We all want different things from a game. I don't think Fixer is too weak or Legacy is too strong. I think they are the heroes they are and we'll play them based on our personal preferences. :slightly_smiling_face:

We're all going to prefer different heroes - and for different reasons. We shouldn't expect we're going to love playing all the heroes. When I played Magic, I didn't like playing discard or land-destruction decks; it just wasn't fun to me, but I know a lot of folks who thoroughly enjoy those kinds of decks. In Sentinels, I generally don't play Wraith, as she's just too powerful for my preferences. I do enjoy Mr. Fixer, as he has interesting opportunities to deal with the situations that come up while still being fun and challenging to play. I do enjoy playing Finest Legacy, but that's because I like helping other folks be better at what they do :wink:  - which is why I don't enjoy Newest Legacy as much but love Greatest Legacy. (And it honestly surprises me I still enjoy playing Legacy after more demos playing him than I can count!)

Honestly, I love that >G has created such an interesting and diverse mix of heroes to give us the opportunity to fit into our preferences so well! :+1:

I actually agree with Rabit that I prefer diverse mix of heroes. I am fine with Mr. Fixer and Legacy, but....

 

some criticize Mr Fixer in the name of "Balance", I just like pointing out that "Balance" goes two ways. 

 

I also don't mind the people that criticize Fixer with the "fun" argument. I don't agree, but who am I to tell you about fun. 

 

As for the stat errors well the reason the error on Legacy is small is due to a quirk in binomial statistics. When you measure something at 80% the error is smaller then at 60%. If anyone wants to discuss the math of this offline, I would be happy to. 

There's still a good amount of uncertainty in the numbers but even we give her maximum benefit of the doubt, according to the statistics Wraith is not top tier. Looking at the individual numbers it's not like people just don't play her against easy villains either. I agree she feels very strong, but for whatever reason her stats are not turning out that way. Probably too setup and gear reliant, which means she can get shut down easily.

Legacy is a great hero for choice because of the fact he is a great support. Also its great to introduce the Nemesis rule when playing against Baron Blade for thematic or because he is pretty good.

So this is why we see Legacy being a really popular hero.

I am also interested in those 4 Hero games how many are 2 player games. Cause usually Legacy seems to play such a support I only play it when I have to spend more of my time explaining the rules to others or in 2 player game where I can have 1 character constantly provide support.

I think the big issue is the "fun" factor with Fixer, and games where he really NEEDS other heroes to allow him to draw more cards in order to get what he wants when he wants it.  While mechanics is an aspect of that, the main frustration is that it isn't terribly fun waiting for the right card to make you heroic.  Also, limiting his card accelleration to Toolbox and an extra draw when he doesn't use powers/play a card and not being able to search his deck for Tools makes it extra embarassing when other heroes have to lend a helping hand.  It all just feels a little...underwhelming.

With Legacy, how often does it feel like he is compromising the good time of the players?  How often do the heroes have to cater to his lack of card draw?  How often do one of his turns feel wasted with his Galvanize innate power?  I think this is why people don't often bicker over Legacy being overpowered or whether Haka or Ra are better at dealing damage and which one is more efficient.  It's more a factor of how "heroic" each individual character feels.  Adept and Visionary master the board, Wraith pulls every gadget known to crime-fighting out of nowhere, and Nightmist blasts big bads with insidious energy beams powered by her own soul (with plenty of opportunities to pump her HP back up for another go).  Legacy, though potentially overpowered, helps everyone feel more heroic with his deck design purely through being on the field.

Fixer, however, has many a situation where he relies on others to get him what cards he needs to have for a given situation.   When he has what he needs for a situation, he is a force to be reckoned with.  I definitely love Fixer when he's doing what he needs to do to contribute, but those games when he doesn't really can be a let down.  With almost every other character, they have multiple avenues of card accelleration and/or retrieval cards.  Even if those cards aren't drawn, the very potential of being able to use them yourself is rather comforting.  With Fixer's Tools, it's either a lucky Toolbox draw or a lucky draw from another hero's card accelleration.

I understand that there have been many attempts at houseruling his (and more recently, Expatriette's) deck to see about fetching more cards or allowing for more card accelleration.  With some of those attempts, it has apparently made these characters somewhat imbalanced, even overpowered.  I find that to be a little disappointing, because I love it when Expat can mow down minions with a SMG or Assault Rifle, and Fixer with Alternating Tiger and Dual Crowbars is brilliant against Apostate.  The idea that making those opportunities a little less random will ruin the game's balance is a real let-down.   I get that a lot of people love Fixer and Expat's deck as-is, but the idea that there is just no room for searching their decks more reliably or drawing a few more cards makes those games with a crappy hand really sting.
My frustrations with Expatriette and Fixer have been expressed in terms of mechanics, and I don't think that my (or many other Sentinerds') observations are completely unfounded.  But none of that would really matter to me if not for the fact that I feel so useless when I can't deliver on a Tool or Style to beat the villain and card accelleration needs to go to someone else.  It's the lack of self-sufficiency that really disappoints me with characters like Fixer, because sometimes my teammates need to help someone out that isn't me.  Rarely do I get that same disappointment of being utterly helpless with characters like Legacy, Tachyon, or Chrono.  I still get bad draws, but the idea that I can support the team with a Galvanize, draw a few more cards with some Fleet of Foots, or pull out The Masadah with a Displaced Armory, even if bad luck doesn't allow for it, really softens the blow of defeat.

YES!! Someone used the term "Sentinerd" on a post... my work here is done. 

And as a player that loves both Fixer and Expatriette as characters, I do have to agree that although I love the feeling of beating the baddies with a great sequence of plays from Mr. Fixer, I do end up only playing him without the benefit of house rules on those occasions when I am ready to gamble that the experience may leave me frustrated and I'm willing to accept that challenge. If I'm looking for a bit more of a guaranteed fun game (even if we end up losing), I tend to play a different hero or a house-ruled Fixer.  

 

But that's just me, of course. 

I think the issue of feeling useless is at the crux of these recurring debates. Even if she's in the bottom half of heroes for win rate, The Wraith just feels amazing to play. Expat and Fixer are less than 4 percentage points below her. But they have key quirks in their playstyle, including the lack of consistent access to their most important tools, turns that tend to be short and simple, and a short power curve that make them feel less heroic.

The more I look at the stats the more I play the characters, the more I think they actually did a fantastic job capturing the feel of brutal street-level comics with these two hero decks. You don't always have access to what you need but you somehow scrape by.

I think Legacy is so powerful is because he's a force multiplier; the reason he helps win games is because he boosts every other hero. Like Captain America, he allows the team to become more than the sum of his parts. That said, he's not so good with other support heros (unless you have Young Legacy...) and that makes him slightly more "balanced." I'm glad that the Superman Expy is strong, but not needed (like force of will in Magic Legacy format, or Test of Will in Lord of the Rings LCG...)

I totally agree that legacy is operating on a different level. Not saying he isn’t fun to play (I love support characters) but he totally guts a lot of villains with Lead from the front/next evo.

Statistically speaking: bunker, Expatriate, mr fixer vs advanced chairmen in rook city should be a nightmare. It was a pleasure cruise. You throw legacy into that mix and the chairman is impotent, plus your damage output is through the roof. the guy is a beast.

Yes! I've been wanting to have this discussion because I am one of the bigger advocates for balance between heroes. I like balanced games the most and I want players to feel like they've contributed to the team. Legacy players usually feel like they've contributed, but his over the top win stats means that a lot of Legacy games will feel like the heroes are never in danger. Games that are too easy are boring.

Let's do math. Ra, Haka, Fixer, Chrono-ranger, etc have a innate power of 1 or 2 damage. A lot of heroes have a card with a power that says deal 3 or 4 damage. Now, let's talk about Legacy. His innate usually doesn't help his damage. Instead the other heroes get a boost to all damage. If Ra plays a 1 target one-shot it gets a +1. Then he uses a power which is also +1. In a 5 player game if each hero uses a damaging one-shot and a damaging power then Legacy has effectively added 8 damage to the game with his innate. And that doesn't include multi-target attacks. That is just too much.

That situation is unlikely so let's be more realisitic. In a 4 player game let's say each player uses their play phase to setup and their power to deal damage. We'll say 2 of the heroes hit one target and the other one hits three targets. Then we are talking about 5 extra damage from Galvanize. That's still too much for an innate, but it is more reasonable.

I haven't tested it or worked out the wording, but my fix for Legacy would be that Galvanize only applies to one phase of a hero's turn. I recognize that this causes all kinds of problems like what about damage done by heroes during the villain turn and doesn't that mean heroes hurt themselves less and stuff. Haven't figured out all the details, yet.

I don't think his daughter or his grandpa need to be fixed since their powers are strong, but not OP.

Yeah I've started to like the new AZ more and more for a similar reason.  My play group is so conservative loosing the ability to heal AZ for a bunch of life on his turn seemed like a big loss, but one too many games with trouble getting out his needed gear so that his power was literally useless has canged my mind.

I've also recently thought about house ruling Bunker's Turret Mode so that you can't draw during your draw phase.  That way he could still get the benefit of teammates like TLT.  Also if you are playing standard Bunker you have the power to draw and if you choose to the effect of this mode is skip your play, get +1 damage on a power and draw one card like normal.  This would let you sustain gatling gun and fuel the canon while in turret mode at the cost of using a second power.  You basically give up your play phase to get +1 damage and the choice to either use a second power or get your 1 card draw.  I know its not an issue with him if you have ammo drop and tons of minions out, but some villians don't have minions.

 

In math your are likely right, but I find Granpapy to be the most OP.  On his turn he effectively has the choice to use any power the heros have on the board so he always has use of the best power for his turn.  This is the same reason AA rocks with inspiring supertonic out.

Thing is, Finest Legacy's power is one of the best powers in the game. Greatest Legacy is gaining flexibility, yes, but unless you need a specific effect (ongoing destruction, healing, etc) Galvanize is going to be better than any other hero's power anyway.

Greatest Legacy with Argent Adept, on the other hand, is ridiculous.  :slightly_smiling_face:

I agree Finest has an amazing power, but, that depends on your other hero setup. 

Mostly for my group its a lot of 3-4 player games where galvanize results in maybe 5 extra damage in a turn as estimated above.  Sometimes it does more if you have lots of targets out and AOE, but sometimes the glavanize is overkill and doesn't help an attack at all.

That damage can be just exactly what you need sometimes, but think of giving Expat and extra gun use (any of them), or Ra a use of tornado with the staff out, or Chronoranger with bounties and a weapon out.  Think aobut giving Haka, Nightmist, or Scholar the ability do damage and draw cards to help fuel their discards or TLT letting everyone draw an extra card.  Think about unity getting an extra raptor out or O-X playing a card off of someones deck or Tempest healing everyone for 2 or doing 6 damage and drawing two cards.  Some of these could result in more damage, some in less but have an extra benefit.  To me it seems like any of these might be as good as the extra 5 or so damage galvanize gives in a turn plus that character gets to heal which can be huge!

And as said Pappy Legacy with AA can be pretty crazy.

Your point about 3 hero games is well taken. Usually in that circumstance Galvanize is only going to net you 2-4 damage. You're sacrificing almost nothing to gain the flexibility. But as you step up in number of heroes Galvanize gets insane. If it's an equation, Galvanize adds 1 to each term, and Gung Ho duplicates one term. If you only have a couple other terms Gung Ho is better, but if you have lots of terms it's no contest.

I'm not saying Hung Ho isn't good. It's really good. All the Legacies have really strong innates. I'm just saying that it's not drastically better than Galvanize. Galvanize is the single strongest offensive power in the game in my opinion, and most of the time you're on offense.