The Dreamer's projections: a glimpse of the future

General GTG Sentinel Comics Lore
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So I started thinking about the Dreamer's projections.

It occured to me that the "Dark Hero" was a bit strange.  After all,  Vanessa (as the dreamer) was only 6 years old!  Legacy was a shining figure of goodness, and so it seems like it would be extremely strange for the Dreamer to have such a sinister version of him lurking about. So I started thinking about the projections in general, and why she has such specific nightmare creatures in her head.  

 

See, the Dreamer is unique.  Her brain actually exists in two places at the same time  in the head of the 6 year old girl, and the head of the adult Visionary. And they are both powerful psychics.  So what I think is happening is that the Dreamer's mind is taking the Visionairy's knowledge of the future, filtering the terrifying bits through the mind of a 6 year old, and distilling them into these projections. I actually think that each projection represents something or someone VERY specific.

 

Take the Dark Hero.  I think that this is Iron Legacy, as understood by someone who had NEVER met or seen him, but HAD seen (or knew about) Legacy. The future as described by a child who didn't really understand all of the context.

 

So, with that in mind, I started looking at the other projections.  

Dark Hero: Like I said, I think that this represents Iron Legacy.

Grotesque Arachnoid: Given the Argent Adept's involvement, and the eyes, I think that this might represent Akash'Bhuta.  "Earth spirit, sort of, kind of a primordial force really that can animate and create limbs out of the environment", boiled down to a kiddie version of "A scary big thing, with lots of arms and eyes!"

Illusionary Demon: I think that this represents Apostate.  A demonic thing, but its not quite real.  Maybe just the tip of something bigger that is dangerous in and of itself, but which is concealing the truth.  Its an illusion, or a lie, covering up what it really represents.  Foote has had some great ideas about what could actually be going on with Apostate, and I think that to a child, "Illusion demon" might be a good way of distilling it.

Granite Oni: this one is a bit more complex, but I think that it could represent either the operative, or the force that Fixer and the Operative are both contending with.  something immeasurably strong and incredibly tough.  this could be the operative herself, as this is a good description of her (and she can be pretty demonic), or it could potentially involve Zhu Long as the Dragon.  Something that you need to entangle and ensnare (like with a hoist chain), since confronting it directly is dangerous.  

The Whipacorn: Taking a look at Mainstay's incap, it seems like he is being confined and imprisoned.  Though  I don't have the card in front of me, I recall it looking like he was being held on a spaceship.  I'm wondering if he is being taken as a slave, or as a potential gladiator (possibly ot fight in the Arena seen on one of Parse's cards...)  Certainly, if you wanted a gladiator cantidate based on looks alone, Mainstay would be a good pick.  

The whipacorn could represent one of the alien slavers.  

Treacherous Ape: the Ape's laser pistol makes me think of the guy on Blackout, and I wonder if the circus could be another representation of a gladiator pit/arena.  A circus of the Roman kind, with the ape representing a guard who kept people in line?

Tooth Fairy: I've suspected for a while that we would see the Old Gods come back, possibly related to Atlantis.  Tempest (in silver shadow) certainly seems to be wearing druidic garb and carrying a blade.  I've speculated about possible Matriarch links to gods, and links in Atlantis to dragons.  I think that the tooth fairy is a representiation of myths and legends coming to back, but not like the good, cute, disney-fied versions.  and ot a kid, I could see that coming out as a Tooth fairy....that eats your teeth.  Basically, think fairies done by Guillermo del Toro.

Toy Master: I think that this represents FILTER.  someone who sits back and collects tech, pulling strings and moving puppets around.  It could be a specific person Iinside FILTER.  It might also represent the V5, since one of his toys is a train...

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Heh, wow - great stuff as always, Braithwhite! And intriguing. Makes me even more interested in what is to come...

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Another option for the Toy Master, sitting back and controlling all of the things - Mr Pike.

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Dude I was JUST thinking about the Dreamer the other day and I am SO glad you brought her up.

Visionary and her younger self sharing a psycic link is brilliant, and your Dark Hero example totally sold me on this idea. Just brilliant.

I have some slightly different takes on some characters, though I think all of yours are great.

Macabre Spectre - Spite. Even the flavor text is from Wraith. (Notice how Dark Hero quotes Legacy, Oni quotes Fixer, Adept quoted on Arachnoid, and Illusionary quotes Fanatic. Theres a huge pattern there fitting in with your theories, so lets run with it) Macabre means dealing with death or injury, and who do we know that comes back from the dead even more horrifying than before? A spectre indeed!

Whipacorn - I really like your interpretation, but with the Rainbow and Volcano, I wanna try and connect it to Dawn somehow. But then theres the flavor text to consider. If we wanna keep the patern above, it could represent LaCapitain cracking the whip for her crew (since Mainstay is quoted) or possibly when Set was dominating Horus in slavery. Looking at the volcano, the approaching storm, and all the other elemental things in that picture, the Ennead could be whats being alluded to here. Visionary has a few run-ins with the Egyptian side of things, even got sucked into the underworld presumably. Maybe it was there she saw Ra and Set.

The Ape - Tachyon is quoted here. Might his have something to do with Matriarch? Both are heavy on the inteligent animal theme, and both are up on the "weilding a power artifact" theme as well. (She also has that toy monkey...so theres that too).

Tooth Fairy - At first, I wanted to say that it was related to the Final Wasteland deal, with the whole "legendary creatures turned evil" deal. But then Unity was quoted, and you know how I like to shoehorn in patterns. Why stop now? First off, Fairys are cute girly things that go right up Unity's thematic ally. The Tooth Fairy is doing something important though. Its eating organic material. Why is this important? If you don't think Unitys nemesis consumes or transforms organic material in a foil to Unity consuming/transforming metal, then idk what you think her nemesis could possibly be. Obviously we dont have a nemesis to compare to, so thats a shot in the dark, but I like kinda like the connection.

Toy Master - I think Toy Master is a much bigger character than some one-off projection, though thats just a hunch. I mean, have you ever really looked at the incap side for Idealist? Her face is being ripped off in jigsaw pieces. The Toy Master could easily be an analogy for Chairman Pike or Baron Blade. The quote from Visionary suggest that the Toy Master is a very big threat and one that she wanted to avoid. We see some landscape art of a very weird place (look through the Sentinels Deck or Friction). There is a cartoon like area shown a few times, which could involve Toy Master in some way. (And for Playtesters, check out those Beacon Proofs once more for another relevant piece of this point).

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Other Dreamer related thoughts:

The cross-over comic event Nightmare World deals with the Dreamer sleeping still in her coma. But I am very unsure that Nightmare World concludes with the Dreamer actually waking up. I think her flip side is a seperate storyline that happens sometime after the events of Nightmare World. Why? First off, we see a walking Dreamer beating up on Skyscrapper who at this point in the story hasn't even been introduced (as far as we know). We also see Scholar offing support to the Dreamer herself in her awakened state, but that could be at any time.

Funny thing, there wasn't a single mention of the Dreamer in Visionarys Tactics read-up on KS. This far into the future, with Legacy's hair greying and Young Legacy now Beacon and Unity all grown up, you would think that a Young Visionary would be running around somewhere with massive powers. Maybe Dreamer doesn't survive into Tactics? Maybe the concluding events of SotM see the Dreamer die somehow, and thats what effectivly cuts off her ties to all the other timelines (as per the Tactics bio). If they do share a strong psycic connection, the loss of one could cripple the other in various ways. Also could explain the speed up in her mental deterioration.

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Vanessa has a stuffed unicorn. It's her protector. Stands to reason her mind would parlay her protector as one of her projections.

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What unicorn?  While dreaming, she has a teddy bear (with an interesting thing in its belly), but no unicorn.  And turning something that she considers a protector into a nightmare?  that seems weird.

 

I think that Foote is right on about the Macabre Specter and the tooth fairy.  

The person talking on the flavor text for each projection seems really important.

For the toy master, I totally think that its FILTER relatewd, specifically because vanessa (which, given the context, seems the older vanessa) says that it is what she most wanted to avoid- and given her upbringing as part of the secret project (which is likely FILTER related), it seems reasonable that the director of project Cocoon would factor into her darkest fears.

 

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All little girls have stuffed unicorns. :stuck_out_tongue:

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It's actually an ape, the thing in front of his belly is a shard. Doesn't that sound a lot like the Treacherous Ape?

Also, I will point out that besides the Whipacorn and Tooth Fairy, the projects actually appear in the deck of the hero their flavour text is from. Sacrosanct Matyr, Thokk, Throat Jab, Lightning Reflexes, Demoralization, Hoist Chain, and Counterpoint Bulwark.

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This makes me think that Tooth Fairy and Whipicorn might break away from the above pattern Braithwithe hinted at. Whats your thoughts on all this Ronway?

(A shard? Hmmmm…where have I seen a shards before…)

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huh.  I always thought it was a teddy bear, but yeah.  thats an ape.  

What I think happened is this:

Dreamer falls asleep.  Drags all of the heroes into a nightmare world that consists of visions of the future, reinterpreted as toys, monsters, and projections. Because each of the heroes are going to be involved in the future scenarios, they get taken to the specific "visions" that most directly involve them.  As they overcome them, they get back together, helping each other out of the nightmares, until ultimately the dreamer wakes up.  I'm not exactly sure what happens when the dreamer wakes up, but Fixed Point suggests that something unpleasant is involved.  

My guess is that she confronts the leader of Project Cocoon.  Given how afraid the Visionary is of the Toy Master, it seems like that particular confrontation is important, possibly important enough to become a Fixed Point.

So having each hero witness the specific vision of their future seems like it would be important, and having them respond ot it seems similarly important.  It could also be interesting HOW they respond.

Legacy responds to the dark hero with confusion.  This could be hinting that part of the tragedy of Iron Legacy is that he never really thought he could fall so far, or that he never thought about what could happen to him.    

Wraith comes out swinging against the Spectre.  She goes for precision strikes (IE, throat jab) that keep it from hurting anybody.  I very much like the Spite analogy. 

Mr Fixer avoids direct combat with the Oni, choosing to tangle it up in the hoist chain.  If this is a vision of his confrontations with the operative or some Dragon analog, then it is telling that he can only contain it, not directly defeat it.  Or perhaps containment IS the only way to defeat it.  

The Adept stands fast in the face of the Arachnoid, facing it head on and protecting himself from it.  This might be because he recognizes it AS a dream.

Fanatic fights the demon.  because she is fanatic, and no one has ever accused her of overthinking things.  Which is kind of her problem, really.  the particular danger with her is that she takes things at face value, and has problems with villains that lie and decieve.  If anyone has the card handy, I'd be curious to know how Fanatic is dealing with the Illusionar demon in her deck.  Is she fighting it?  containing it?  banishing it?  It is possible that she learns something about dealing with deception because of it, but I don't have the correesponding card at hand.   

I have no idea why the Treacherous Ape is a tachyon problem.  I thought it was carrying a gun, but it seems to be a wooden stake.  It could be someone pulling funding for her Laboratory?  Or a competitor?  I don't necessarily think that it involves the matriarch, but Tahyon has made a lot of enemies over the years.  Its the "Treacherous" part that makes me think that it is someone she trusts that is going to backstab her.  there are hints that the lab is going to be destroyed (AZ's incap, F6 AZ's art).  It could also represent the figures (dimly) seen on tachyons incap- we still haven't met them.  

Unity and mainstay's visions are very ambiguous.  I suspect that they involve the future scenarios, and that perhaps we "see" those situations reflected in their incapacitated cards, rather than the deck itself.  I could see someone imprisoning Unity to try and replicate her powers.  Perhaps it represents a nanotech threat, a Grey goo scenario?

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 I thought it was carrying a gun, but it seems to be a wooden stake.

Look at that green energy blast it is firing. Then look at every appearance of the ape and see if you can figure out where the blast is coming from.

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Braith, Fanatic is fighting the Illusionary Deamon in Sacrosacnt Martyr to the best of my knowledge. 

 

I always assumed it was coming from the stake as well. I don't think you woulda said anything if that really was the case though. I'll have to relook through some stuff when I get home

 

I am also of the Opinion the Dreamer doesn't wake up during the Nightmare World arc. I have a feeling that doesn't happen till much later in the story

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That makes an interesting idea, then.  A sacrifice of self to burn away the illusion and reveal the truth.

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I won't know until I get home, but the wiki says that it is on Lightning reflexes (which I do remember as featuring energy blasts).  I'm guessing that it looks like a wooden stake until the ape uses it, at which point it is revealed as a crystal.  

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Hmm... Let me go get my cards, and I'll look at it...

Could it be a Scholar analogue? He's fat, hairy, holds a stone?

So the ape IS firing the beam, then? My guess would have been that he's actually ABSORBING the energy, rather than firing it. The only other green energy I can think of is Argent Adept's Polyphoric Flare.

 

Otherwise, I'm not sure what you mean by that. It would appear that it's just coming from the shard in its hand (if it were purple, rather than green, I might think there were a connection there, but it's not...).

 

There's also the fact that he never seems to be HITTING anyone with it. He's always shooting it up at an angle. Could that have some significance?

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I just had a thought.  What if it isn't a crystal?  

what if it is something that LOOKS like a crystal, but is in fact a hiding place?  

Here's my thinking.

Dark Visionary tried taking over Visionary pretty soon after her arrival. Specifically, while the Visionary was worn out and resting in her telekinetic cocoon.  The cocoon, by the way, looks exactly like a purple crystal.  

Eventually the visionary recovered strength and cast her out.  Don't know how long it took.  

What if Dark visionary went looking for easier prey?  the dreamer woudl be a perfect cantidate.  Young, untrained, healthier than the visionary.  I'll bet that DV hid herself in a telekinetic/telepathic cocoon (since she doesn't have a physical body, as such), and made as if she was a protector or an invisible friend.  then at night, started filling the kid's mind with horrific visions of the future.  the goal being to break her down so that DV could move in without a fight.  the crystal in the ape's belly ISN'T a crystal.  its the Dark Visionary's version of a Telekinetic cocoon.  Same shape as the Visionary's version, but DV's signature green color.  

that is why the ape is so treacherous.  It styles itself as a protector, and then goes after people when their backs are turned.  Its the ringleader of whole thing, and is wrapped in layers of protections.  In order to really cast her out, the heroes have to win free of their specific visions, then wake up the kid and get her to recognize the threat nesting so close at hand.

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I think DV has always been inside of Visionary right up until she cocooned herself during a fight with Gloomweaver, and popped out to save the day (so to speak). But with that said, if Dreamer is getting all of this second-hand-future visions and is filtering them through her imagination, that implies there is some kind of strong telepathic link that Visionary shares with her younger self. It could makes sense that DV has access to this connection as well and could be the cause of the distress befalling Dreamer. 

The Dreamers character card depicts the same color change dynamic that Visionary/Dark Visionary have. Her front side shows the healthy light purple telepath energy, and when she awakens, its back to the deep purple and bright greens of Dark Visionary. 

But back to the Ape…after Christophers comments and McBehrer's reaction, I think Christopher is implying that the blast is not coming from the wooden steak. I think the best evidence is on Lightning Reflexes were Tachyon is not looking at the Ape, rather she is looking in the total opposite direction. Then theres Violent NIghtmares where the Ape (if the shadowy figure guy in the background is indeed the Ape) isn't shooting ANYWHERE near our escaping heros. Why is that exactly? Is is absorbing energy blasts all Dr Gero style? And toward what end?

In the Dark Visionary's bio through the ST Kickstarter, it talks about how DV just needed to buy time to grow stronger, and it fed off of Vanessa's stress and pain brought on by her timejump. The battle against Gloomweaver was the stresser that free'd DV. What if the Ape is acting in a similar fashion? What if it is gaining and absorbing energy until there is enough to awaken the Dreamers full potential? This could be DV's plan the whole time, why she latched on to Vanessa in the first place during the Time Jump, to get another chance to acomplish something she couldn't do herself in her own time.

The awakened Dreamer could very well be the young Dark Visionary and the condiut for something larger… The child is the center of this whole thing lets not forget.

Although it doesn't really fit anywhere into this theory, the Ape = Scholar is more than interesting. If the Ape is acting as a sort of protector, redirecting damage from others to itself, well that sounds a lot his Alchemy Redirection. We also see an awakened Dreamer on Flesh to Iron, Scholar by her side. Since the quote is from Nightmare World, I'll assume the picture and flavor text are from the same event. They both are protectors, both are large figures with an item of power. But why the deliberate connection with Tachyon and the Ape? And why would the Scholar's memory evoke a projection anyway? We see Dreamer attacking Skyscrapper, and we see an alchemy symbol on the box for WotC. Maybe that answer is still on the horizon?

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I'm looking at lightning reflexes again, and honestly I can't be positive I'm seeing it right. It's more strange than I thought especially in the contex of this thread. 

I have two theories. 

1. One Beam is coming from the top right toward the Ape, which in turn is being blocked with a shield. You can see that shield form around the Ape against the comet style look of the beam.  The beam may or may not be being absorbed by the shard, but it seems that the glow of the shard is seperated from the glow of the beam. 

2. There is a green beam coming toward the Ape from the top right. But it is being absorbed by the shard, which then redirects a yellow beam toward tachyon (or back through the green beam)

Im not sold either way. Next time you guys break out this card and take a look. What is going on in this picture? 

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I think it's option 1. However, look at Viokent Nightmares. The ape, presuming it is the ape, is holding something up and has a simialr beam effect. Howeve, he's not looking where the beam is going to/coming from, but at chrono-Ranger. Perhaps the beam is broadcasting power to the Ape?

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Maybe it's the child's fear and pain, being beamed at Dark Visionary and absorbed. It's not the sort of thing you'd want to (psychicly) get in the way of, but Dark Visionary uses it to get stronger and reinforce her hold.