The Tyranny of the New

General GTG General Discussion
1

Yes, it's a provocative title, but this is how I am feeling about the new heroes. 

 

Nightmist, Argent Adept, and Unity are all new heroes that bring new mechanics to the game and also new frustrations. While each of them plays very differently, they do not play well with others. This does not mean they can't play with others, just that certain hero combos make you feel like these heroes are working against the team instead of for it. This is not necessarily a bad thing by itself, but you need to be more careful with choosing your heroes now. No more randomized heroes unless you want to potentially help the villain out. On the plus side, it does increase player discussion (often with begging).

Unity can destroy other player's equipment willy nilly, and while it is polite to get permission from your ally first, it is not required. This can make her a bit of a bane for both the Argent Adept and Absolute Zero, especially if her build a bot cards don't come out and she is dependent on her allies for scrap. She also does not play well with Nightmist or Haka whose most damaging attacks will punk Unity's bots as well. This leads to a, "please don't do that right now, it will hurt my bots and I can do a ton of damage with them! Well I can do a ton of damage right now with this spell!," type of conversation. Who deserves to do glorious damage more? The situation my dictate which is better, but not always. As a shared adventure,This can lead to some strife with players. 

The Argent Adept is Absolute Zero, the sequel. I prefer him to AZ as he seems to have more to do early on, but he is just as dependent on lots of cards in play to pull of his really powerful stuff. I often look at his hand and say to people I can do great stuff in 3 turns if we can keep my equipment out. That's great but most villains trash equipment and ongoings. To ramp him up, other players are chucking their stuff. Again, circumstances may dictate what the better play is, but sometimes it does not. Playing the Argent Adept, and Absolute Zero in the same group can be a disaster as both are very needy heroes. I am seeing that one or the other can be properly supported but not both 

Nightmist, as mentioned above does not play well with Unity, and also does not play well with Legacy. He tends to make her hit point investment in powers too punishing. In fact, he can shut her down effectively while helping everyone else. While you can work around this somewhat (E.g. pitching cards to redirect the damage),it is what I would call anti-synergy. It's odd when a player is begging you not to galvanize. 

So what's the tyranny here? It is that by creating new and interesting abilitie, these heroes actually limit the effectiveness of other heroes in a much more direct way than I had seen previously. Ra can really mess up absolute zero, but he can also synergize well with him. While galvanize can cause some problems with Haka, it impacts Nightmist far more. So the previous synergy problems were only minor issues while these seem much bigger. 

I generally like to see how heroes can work together, not how they make each other weaker. I'm also not a big fan of telling people that they shouldnt't play "that" hero with "these" others. I still love the game, but I am wondering if you have to be very careful with deck selection now or you are shooting yourself in the foot. 

 

 

2

All the things you mention are things that I think make the game more fun, not less.  Doesn't bother me at all that Argent Adept may need to give up an instrument once in a while to help out Unity or that Haka's Rampage might take out a few bots in the name of taking down the villain.  Everyone plays different and values different things, I guess.

3

Also, I disagree that the Adept doesn't Play Well With Others. He's the Ultimate Support character and, unlike how sometimes Legacy's+Damage isn't appreciated, is almost /always/ useful to others. Someone is almost always wanting to play a card/use a power/give a selective Damage boost/give selective DR/Destroy any card in game that's not a character card or indesctructible. Yes, he requires some Set up, but no more than, say, Wraith. And, in my opinion, less than AZ since AZ requires a specific set of cards and the Adept can be useful and make do with anything in his hands (usually). I have not met a single PC in game that doesn't love playing beside the Adept.

Nightmist has Oblivion, sure. She and Unity don't get along for that reason. But that's really no more unfriendly than Rampage (theoretically could do more damage, but it's for a /massive/ Damage pay off in the end). And yes, Unity can turn the Staff of Ra into a mechanical rapter... But she generally doesn't unless that player says it's okay. She has more than enough ways to get Bots out on her own.

4

Also, Argent Adept can reliably have himself or another Hero play an additional card on his turn.  His set-up time is a joke if you have the right cards (which is very likely, considering his full playset of Arcane Cadences and Instrumental Conjurations).  Abs is a three turn set-up MINIMUM.  Argent Adept can easily cut his time down to two turns to reliably help himself or others.  Hell, even if he doesn't get going, allowing another player to play a card or use a power outside of their turn is phenomenal.  I get what you're saying about Unity and Nightmist, but Argent Adept is easily one of the most get-alongin'-est Heroes out there.

5

Legacy does have some anti-synergy with Nightmist, but he also has some really good synergies. Everybody likes healing and card draw, but Nightmist likes it more than most because of the way she uses HP and cards in hand as resources, and a well-timed Heroic Interception turns Oblivion into a no-brainer. Additionally, Galvanize is pure gravy if Nightmist is using her redirect, as it's a point of extra damage on her spell, plus a point of extra damage on the redirected damage. I find when I play Nightmist and Legacy together, those two players end up working closely together to coordinate the timing on their plays and it really pays off. Sure there are turns where Nightmist talks Legacy out of using Galvanize, that just means that he has a free power activation to become immune to something or serve up some healing.

Seriously, pull off Heroic Interception + Galvanize + Next Evolution -> Oblivion, and then tell me they can't work well together.

6

Definitely don't agree with Argent Adept, he's incredibly helpful to others.  The example about instruments getting targeted by equipment destruction, while a realistic situation and discussion amongst the group, is no diffrent than any two characters who use any equipment.  Haka doesn't want to pitch his mere, wraith doesnt' want to pitch her utility belt, etc...  Plus, Argent can play so many cards he often HAS an extra instrument that he can do without (since in any given play, usually one or two of his instruments shines a lot more than others depending on the Villain), so if anything, he is protection against Absolute Zero or another equipment needy person losing a critical component.

 

Lots of powers allow destruction of other people's cards.  I think every card that targets ongoing does so universally, and even some of the damage powers can be used to poke other heroes.  The fact is, if a player is using their abilities to harass other characters, that's going to be a problem regardless of the hero in use.  While its true Unity's power is one of the few that she benefits by hurting another player, I feel like any reasonable group is going to have a discussino of "what is more beneficial, helping Unity play a card or keeping an equipment" and the decision will likely be clear.  Also, the other side of the coin is that, if Unity is having a hard time getting out cards, a helpful friend can toss an equipment he doesn't need out for her and help her get rolling.  I know on Haka I routinely have extra equipment I won't need thanks to my card draw, and could let Unity crack down one of them if she needed some help.  Just makes my card draw feel all the more meaningful.

 

Finally, Nightmist and Oblivion...yeah its tough to eat an Oblivion, but honesty the payout isn't that bad unless Nightmist draws two 4's.  As for her interaction with Unity, 1 damage isn't going to matter, and 2 and 3 only kills raptor bots.  Anyone else can be healed by one card, which, since it gives draw is good to play anyway, and four kills platform bots, but the likelihood of two 4's is pretty low.  Nightmist combined with damgae increasing heroes is probably the biggest problem I see from your post, and that's just because Nightmist is very odd with her high risk/high reward play style.  I actually don't like some of her own cards (such as the ring that boosts damage) for that same reason, but I think that's more a downside of Nightmist than a problem with inter-hero synergy, but all the heroes have downsides to their play style so I don't think its that big of a deal.

7

I agree with the other responders.  I don't find that Unity has to use others' equipment to power her bots.  I usually don't even think of it, because they need their stuff too.  The fact that her bots could die to Oblivion or Rampage is an inconvenience, but that doesn't make her unplayable with Nightmist or Haka at all.  Hell, most characters sigh and shake their heads when those cards come out.  (In my opinion, it's far worse to me that Ra is shamed away from playing his best card, Imbued Fire, in a team with Zero.)

Argent Adept does require a lot of stuff out if he wants to make combos, sure.  But I can't compare him to Zero.  Some of his basic performs are the strongest powers in the game.  Sarabande of Destruction, Alacritous Subdominant, and Inspiring Supertonic will always be amazing.  There is no effect like Counterpoint Bulwark in the game, either.  He can contribute, and well, with just one song out there.  Any more he gets out are just icing on a delicious support cake.  He's not needy, he's the one others need!

Finally, Nightmist doesn't work with Legacy?  Sorta true.  But she can also work really well with Legacy.  Double attacks with Heedless Lash or Oblivion, redirected through the Amulet, are really strong with him.  Legacy can take some villain damage meant for her, or make her immune to damage for a round.  Legacy and Nighmist have to be in tune to profit from being in the same game, and yes, he may want to spend some time not using Galvanize, but they can work.  This isn't the first time Legacy's been encouraged to not Galvanize.  (See: Plague Rat.) 

8

I like the discussion but I disagree that the Adept is not needy. As the saying goes, there is no such thing as a free lunch. If you don't get a nice play an extra card effect in your hand then he is almost as slow as AZ. Also those abilities you can use right away Are not always what you need. He has some of Mr. fixer in him where he can end up with a mediocre ability that helps a little but none of the synergistic cards he needs to overdrive. 

I've had it happen more than once where you can see the potential but can't get it into play fast enough to be highly useful. Does he have great  abilities, absolutely but he is very combo dependent. Where other players do not like losing an ongoing or equipment he hates it just like AZ. I cannot downplay the destruction of equipment and ongoings like many others have. They hit and they hit hard. Sometimes heroes have extra equipment and sometimes they don't. It doesn't help to allow another player to do something if they just sacrificed the card they would do it with. I must play in games where things get destroyed more than other people. It's not uncommon to see his stuff wiped multiple times in one game. And this is with others babying him. 

It's not like I only want to play Ambuscade. 

 

9

 But AA is about the absolute best hero to have on your team if you're facing villains that do equipment wipes.   He's specifically tailored like no other hero to help the team get back on their feet after an equipment shutdown.

 

Alacritous Subdominant, Inventive Preperation, and Vernal Sonota are all great after equipment wipes.   Most villains that wipe equipment now wipe X equipment or X ongoings, as opposed to all.   This means that Alacritous Subdominant can easily be used pre-wipe in order to guard against stuff destruction (slap down some equipment or ongoings you dont mind losing).

 

If Unity is cramping your style then people who are playing her either:  1.  Don't know what they're doing or 2.  are being jerks.   Its a coop game,  if your ally is seriously blowing up your Microtargeting Computer without your permission to get a bot out...  then I'm sorry, but you need to play a different game.   Unity has enough card drawing in her deck that she should never have to rely on blowing allied equipment to get her stuff out.  If you do, then you're doing it wrong.

10

I will say that Argent Adept can really have a hard time against, of all Villains, his rival Akash'bhuta.  She breaks so many of his Instruments and Ongoings!

11

No wonder he recruited Fanatic to help sort her out.

12

 again, I disagree here.  I find that AA is remarkably good vs Akash'bhuta.  Serebande of Destruction is mighty handy,  and so is Cedistic Dissonant.

13

 

This is a really good point. Cedistic Dissonant, in particular, is extremely useful against her. Instantly destroy one of her Primeval Limbs and BOOM instantly deal anywhere between 9 and 12 damage to her. With the right setup, it can be pulled off multipled times in one turn. Sure, you lose an instrument for each limb destroyed, but there's plenty of tricks in his deck to get them back.

14

 one of the more effective strategies for AA vs AB  (hah,  wonder if that was intentional?)  is to get out Cedistic Dissonant if you can and then play Instruments, Cadence, and Instrumental Conjurations to just keep sacrificing instruments to roflstomp primeval limbs.   Good times.

15

I was referring more to her Equipment and Ongoing destruction that she has.  Considering how many cards she can play in a turn, it is very likely that she will wipe AA's Music and Instruments from the board in one turn.  I'm not saying that he isn't good against her, but she can break his stuff much easier and much faster than he can break hers.

16

She cant blow up my stuff if I blow it up myself.   Just make sure you dont have more than 1 instrument down at time.   They're like ammo.

17

NIghtmist’s Oblivion plus Unity’s Cryo Bot or Stealth Bot are both nice. Nightmist’s Oblivion plus Unity’s Volatile Parts is beautiful.

18

What about when she blows up the Ongoing that you use to blow your stuff up?

19

Rejuvinating Entropy destroys H ongoings, its not Devestating Aroura.  Just keep playing ongoing cards so that you have Entropy fodder for when it comes up, and you won't have to lose Cedistic Dissonant.

 

If it works out that you dont have a choice....  C'est la vie, and  also that's what Vernal Sonota is for.

20

I understand that, but it still complicates things.  I'm not saying the Argent Adept is outright bad against her.  I'm just saying that he can frequently encounter trouble with her because she breaks all of his stuff.  Ideally you're prepared for when she does that but that doesn't always happen, especially when she breaks Ongoings and Equipment early in a game.  This isn't a criticism or a complaint.  I've just noticed that playing against AB often results in the most constant and repeated Ongoing and Equipment destruction games in the entirety of the Multiverse.