Thematic dissonance?

Old Rules & Gameplay Boards GSF World Discussion [Closed]
#1

I think I'm detecting some thematic dissonance in the description of GSF on the new website.  We're controlling a ship and crew in defense of the galaxy, but we're actually just a bunch of rogues, smugglers and pirates who probably couldn't care less about defending the galaxy.  Why exactly have they "come together to defend the galaxy"?  For money, maybe?

The site says we travel around to buy ship upgrades, then engage the Opposition in battle.  That's about as un-rogue-like as you can get.  Rogues and space pirates would travel around to buy ship upgrades and cargo, then spend the whole game trying to avoid the Opposition.  You know who would want to engage the Opposition?  Stalwart defenders, space cops or Volethian Guardians, that's who.

Is there an adventure component to the game that would be more rogue-like?  Space pirates travelling around to buy and trade cargo while avoiding any Opposition.  That actually sounds pretty great.  But if the game is about gearing up so you can defeat the forces threatening to overrun the galaxy, then I think we'd better call those space cops.

Or perhaps the game can be played different ways?  Like how you can play different heroes in SotM, is it possible to play the space cops or the rogues or someone else, each with their own way of defending the galaxy (space cops have to blast X ships while pirates have to run X guns)?  That could be a way to increase replayability perhaps.

In any case, if I'm playing a crew of lovable space rogues and my job is to defend the galaxy from invading forces, the galaxy is in a lot of trouble. :)

#2

Han Solo joins the rebellion and fights the Empire. This seems like a classic trope in sci-fi: the scoundrel who actually has a secret heart of gold and ends up "reluctantly" roped in to help the good guys. A game based around Han Solo and Malcolm Reynolds style reluctant heroes who start out as essentially space pirates or smugglers and end up saving the universe sounds both rad and fictional-universe plausible to me. Tell me you don't want to pilot the Millenium Falcon in the siege of the Death Star.

Even setting aside that angle and assuming you're legit criminals who don't care about anybody else, there's still good reasons for a rogue to fight off an invasion. What if they're some borg-like race of sentient machines who just wants to kill everybody? A corpse can't turn a profit. Think Aria T'Loak from Mass Effect. She's basically a mob boss and a terrible person, but she helps you fight the Reapers because being dead is bad for business. I think this style hinges on the Opposition being a credible threat to the whole galaxy. This sort of villain helping the good guys thing doesn't work if there's not a compelling reason to think the invaders will be MUCH MUCH WORSE than the status quo.

#3

OK, but what's the point of saying the players are a bunch of rogues and space pirates if what they actually do is space cops stuff?  Should just say it's a game for space cops.  Sure, Han Solo ended up joining the rebellion and fighting the Empire, but that was his whole character arc.  I doubt that each GSF game is going to start with a crew who's just in it for the money, then over the course of each and every game give you reasons to want to fight the Opposition ("I drew the 'The Opposition Killed My Family' card!  Woo hoo!"), so that by the last few minutes of the game you're ready to pilot a stolen shuttle down to the forest moon.  Although maybe that'd be awesome.

Here's why I point this out.  Raise your hand if you've ever been part of a roleplaying game where the GM says "make any character you want" but then says "ok, I see a street-wise grifter, a retired stage magician, and a sailor with a mysterious past.  Here's the adventure - you're all front-line infantry in the Marines in Iraq ..."  That's the dissonance I see, though of course things are super early in the development process.

#4

I'm guessing the 'rogues and space pirates' stuff will be reflected in the cards you control - it's less about having to find reason to fight and more about having to fight with a ragtag bunch of stolen equipment and anything you can scavenge. Space cops tend to be more organised.

#5

Hey, maybe the Big Bad is Grand Warlord Voss and it's a crossover ;).

#6

I like the card-based character development angle. I want a game that does that!

The benefit of being Han Solo type roguey characters is that you get to fly Serenity instead of an X-Wing. Plus it's your ship, not military issue, so there are thematic reasons for you to need to upgrade it and why you'd be the one in charge of upgrades in the first place instead of some general or whatever.

If you set up your enemies and scenario right, you don't need to give each character individual motivations to fight. In the blurb it says, "Dangerous opposition forces threaten to overrun the entire galaxy..." which sounds to me like total annihilation if they aren't fought off. We're talking Reaper invasion here, where every person needs to fight back if there's any chance of survival.

To go to your RPG example, sure dropping those characters overseas makes no sense. But putting the same characters in a Red Dawn scenario cound be really interesting and cool. I'm getting a vibe more like the latter than the former from the blurb.

We'll have to wait and see, of course, but given the >G fellas' work on SotM, I'm confident that it will be super strong thematically and the world/backstory will be well thought out.
#7

<3 This is the best idea.

Wait I lied the best idea is they have variable big bads and Voss is a promo for the Kickstarter.

#8

Well there's always the possibility that the objectives are different missions that you choose how to handle based on the cards you put into your deck. Maybe one mission is to smuggle cargo past the imperials, maybe another is to take out some reavers and the fight is unavoidable, maybe another you join a rebellion movement to take out a purple belly death star. I just >G to make me WANT to do what they intend and give me options to meet those goals.

 

edit: spelling, fuck the grammar.

#9

It depends on what the "Opposition" is. A conqueering warrior like Voss, or the Borgs, could well mean "end of business", easily defeat "normal" military forces, and make the "free spacers" the last line of defense... Or maybe the "Opposition" is an oppressive government trying to "pacify" this little sector of the galaxy where pirates and smugglers have established their port of call.

Also, thematically, this is a trope : "rogues" are symbols of freedom. Many stories and characters use rogues, pirates, etc, as last chance freedom fighters. Han Solo, of course. Robin Hood. Corsair and the Starjammers from the Marvelverse. Even John Robbie,the Cat, in Hitchcock's "To catch a thief" : a jewel thief who became a resitance fighter (and hero) after his prison was bombed - as did all the other prisonners.

>G likes building games on " tropic realities" rather than "normal realities" : we had the " super-hero comic book reality" with SotM, we now have the "free scoundrels" reality. I don't know if it will work, and feel "natural" enough to players, but that's a fun idea.

 

Personal anecdote : my last D&D campaign was built around a pirate crew that slowly became freedom fighters against an oppressive government (and later, gods).

#10

The opposition ships are actually very good motivators for a bunch of mercenaries, information brokers, gamblers and assassins to want to join forces to take them out. I can't give out details, of course, but only one of them is even anything close to an empire.

#11

Resistance groups historically tend to try to recruit people from and make deals with the criminal underworld, because those people have useful transferable skills. And sometimes mob bosses transform themselves into guerilla leaders (and vice versa).

#12

I could see the Opposition being any kind of organized force that would be a threat to a bounty hunter/gambler/smuggler - so conquering race ala the Borg or Voss, or super lawful government ala the Empire or Alliance, or even organized crime ala the Hutts or Orion Syndicate. I'm all about the rogue with a heart of gold trope though (except for Gambit... I've never liked Gambit...).  

#13

 

How about Fantomex? Though he may just be a rogue. 

#14

 

wow, those are all… very good guesses.

#15

McBehrer, you're not so good at keeping your playtesting to yourself, are you? ;)

#16

I don't recall saying any of them were RIGHT. Just good guesses.

#17

Just a note here, going off of the four characters I've seen on the Kickstarter.

Fargrim Kadlinsyn: Mercenary, life dream is creating the perfect explosion

Almaric, the gambler: Gun and drug-runner, con artist

The tank-sisters Moravi and Zairichi: Mercenaries, assassins, Moravi is a braggart

Boroghul the Ragged: Bounty hunter, mercenary, former ranked member of a war band, naturally aggressive race(?)

 

From this, I can honestly see three out of the four not needing a selfless reason to get into a fight. Boroghul and Moravi would probably do it to increase their reputations, or someone pays them, or maybe just for fun in Boroghul's case. Fargrim (who was not revealed until today) probably goes around searching for things he can blow up without getting into too much trouble. Almaric seems to be the only one who would want to run first, but he seems like a YOLO sort of person, and might just be crazy enough to do this.

 

This is not to say Spiff's point isn't still a good one, but these guys seem more likely to shoot down grand threats than to run away like your average theif or smuggler would.