Whenever a non-hero target enters play, increase damage dealt to that target by 1 until the start of the environment turn
Expatriette has Hairtrigger Reflexes in play
Whenever a non-hero target enters play, Expatriette may deal that target 1 projectile damage
It's the Environment turn. It's the start phase. There's an environment card in play that has a start of turn effect which brings an environment target into play. Expatriette chooses to deal that target 1 projectile damage. Is the damage boosted by one due to Exploit Vulnerability?
My intuition is that when Exploit Vulnerability triggers in the start of the environment turn, its effect immediately expires, but I could see one arguing that its effect would last until the next start of the environment turn.
As an aside, since neither Exploit Vulnerability nor Hairtrigger Reflexes have start of turn nor end of turn effects, the fact that the action is occuring during the start of a turn has no bearing on the order in which their effects are applied. It's up to the players to decide. If my intuition about is correct, the order is irrelevant, since Eploit Vulnerability's effect immediately expires. If not, the players would be able to decide whether or not they want to boost the damage.
It’s the next turn. There was a bug with Throat Jab (and similar cards) that were played at the start of their turn and immediately expired. It was ruled and fixed that it lasts until the next turn.
Throat Jab states until the start of your next turn whereas Exploit Vulnerabilty lists just start of the environment turn. A similar item occurs if I play Slip Through Time with Electro Deployment Unit in that it will get destroyed during the Start of Turn phase.
That's different, though. That's an "AT the start of your turn" effect, which adds to the que of things to happen DURING the phase. UNTIL means before, so once it's the phase, it's too late.
We are arguing the same point McBehrer about Exploit Vulnerability. Throat Jab does work until the start of your next turn even if played at the start of Wraith's turn based on its wording andee even have a ruling to that affect. Exploit Vulnerabilty would expire immediately because it does not say until the start of the next environment turn but just start of the environment turn.
Just FYI: According to the text arenson9 posted, above, Exploit Vulnerability says, "Whenever a non-hero target enters play, increase damage dealt to that target by 1 until the start of the environment turn" (emphasis mine).
Which is why I think in this case it expires during the same start of the environment turn if a target played at the start of an environment turn.
Edit: To have it last a round for a target played at the start of the environment turn Exploit Vulnerabilty would need to say until the start of the next environment turn.
Your intuition you keep referring to is wrong. Things that last until the start of X turn expire well before any effect that begins "At the start of [X] turn..." will trigger.
EDIT: Pretend there is a card in play that is always the first to trigger that says, "At the start of the environment turn, end all effects that last until the start of the environment turn." It only triggers one time, because that is how it works.
Can we take a look at another "Until" example? Maybe that will help.
BoT Chrono has wording like "Until the next time you use a power". In this particular case "Until" does not mean "ending directly before" as Mcbehrer has put forth. The power must be used and resolved to be considered used (this definition of power use has been ruled on in other cases as well iirc).
In context of Arenson's question, could it be the case that Exploit Vulnerability's effect expires simultaneous to other "Start of Turn" triggers, giving the player an effective choice on whether to increase the damage or not?
I would say that the damage could be increased only during that start of environment turn but once the environment gets to playing a card that affect has expired.
In order in which cards are played, I would resolve all start of turn/end of turn cards. So if Exploit Vulnerability is played after Con's Bunker, you'd be able to shoot any target it brings out for extra damage. This works, right?
Actually, I don't quite agree with this statement. I understand that things are supposed to be taken literally, but in the past my literal interpretation isn't always the same as someone else's. I feel that all "until the…" happen at the same time (and I am very comfortable with that and it makes things a lot easier as that it how the mechanic works), but that still leaves some leeway in the exact wording. Why? Because most of the time when something says "the start of the next turn" it is because the card is most likely played on your turn, and that added clarification works very well. However, for an "until" effect that most likely won't expire on the turn that it is applied (not that it can't just that it mostly doesn't), saying the statement without "next" works a little better. If it said "until the start of the next environment turn" doesn't sound as good or clean as "until the start of the envirnment turn" even though it might cover 1 edge case without clarification
In other words, there are two possibilites to me:
The difference is wording indicates a difference in mechanic. Which means that not only are there no universal rules for "until", andthere are some unresovled issues that haven't been discussed yet (when exactly does the efect end).
That there is a universal mechaninc of "until", and while the wording difference might be confusing, it does make sense in the context.
Order played is irrelevant after the current Order of Operations rule changes though. Nothing stoping you from resolving things in order though if thats how you choose to do so
I would say no, perhaps it is because of how I am viewing things. Compare Takedown and Mistbound. There are two ways that the effect stops:
You have to stop the effect manually (destroy the card).
It stops after a predetermined duration.
This can be compared to the following situation. You turn on a light at 9AM and you want it to last an hour, and there are two ways to turn it off:
At 10AM you go turn off the light.
You set a timer for an hour and then the light goes off.
In the first case, it makes sense that if you are busy doing other things you would delay turning off the light. However, by #2, it is going to go off immediately, regardless of what you are doing. There is nothing in Sentinels that says an effect needs to "wait in line" for it to stop, only that you need to "wait in line" to manually stop it.
