Vengeance - turn order for newbies?

General GTG General Discussion
1

So I got my copy of Vengeance (Hooray!) and I got to try a game against 4 out of 5 Villians (poor Proletariat got the short straw) as well as trying out all the new heroes (accept The Sentinels) when something occurred to me.

 

The Turn Order Chart isn't newb friendly.

 

Now I know what you're thinking. "TEGRE WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU! WHY U TRY TO TROLL US!" but hear me out.

I pick up the manual and I set up my table. I also am very familiar on how to play (Well I should be considering this is expansion number 4) However the anal retentive side wants to make sure there is some sort of timing chart.  You know. When playing regular Sentinels it's the whole:

Start of Villian Turn do start of turn events, Draw Villian card and play it, End of Villian Turn and do end of Turn effects.  

Followed with Start of Hero Turn, Play Card, Play Power, Draw Hero Card, End of Hero Turn

Than it's the Start of Environment Turn, Play a card, End of Environment Turn.
 
Ok so we all know this (and by we I mean all of you who started with the Core set and expanded from there.)  However it occurred to me if I were to give this to a friend as a gift, who has never played, and he or she was just as anal retentive...at most they'd be lost unless they called me up and asked me... how to play.  If someone where to pick this up...they don't have a specific page to refer to.  They at least know it's Villian 1, than Hero 1, Villian 2, than Hero 2 and so on...but not exactly how to play.  When reading just the Vengeance Manual alone...what exactly constitues a Villian and Hero (and yes an Environment turn?)  Yes I know they could come here to the forums or even the Greater than Games website...but that's not my point.
 
 
I know it may seem like common knowledge, but I'm just pointing out as someone who were to pick this up by itself...they wouldn't have a clear picture of how all the moving parts are supposed to move. Am I mistaken in thinking this?
 
 
I think the only reason why this comes to mind is that it's been stated as being a stand-alone expansion.  While I can see it, I'm wondering if someone new would be able to see it.
2

Which is why it is a mega-expansion and not a stand-alone. Vengeance was not made for a person who has never played Sentinels before.

3

And Legacy's Landing Pad in Freedom Tower? That card is a NIGHTMARE in a Vengeance game!

4

I thought it was exactly that, a stand-alone expansion which you could jump into the game with.  As opposed to, say, Shattered Timelines, which has only two Heroes in it.

5

Vengeance has never, EVER been advertised as stand-alone. It is a mega-expansion, and yes it contains enough cards to play it by itself, but that doesn't mean you can or should. If you look around the forum, pretty much every mention of it being stand-alone has been followed by a bunch of people jumping in going "NO IT'S NOT STAND-ALONE".

6

On my copy of Infernal Relics it says: "Requires the sentinels of the multiverse core game".

 

There is no such statement on Vengence*. 

 

Perhaps such a statement or the full rules should have been provided?

 

*unless I am missing it! but I did look.

 

7

There is also nothing on the box saying that it is stand-alone. However it does say expansion on it. Whenever I see Expansion on the box, unless it says otherwise, I take it to mean it requires the base game to play.

8

That's because it doesn't TECHNICALLY NEED the base game to play, and advertising that it does would be false advertisement, since you'd be saying "you also have to buy this other product of ours" when you really technically don't. I have a feeling there would be some legal shenanigans there.

But it was absolutely never INTENDED to be played without the base game. It just doesn't say it requires it because it technically doesn't.

9

My first Vengeance game was a bit of a chore, even with two other experienced SotM players.  The reason is that in a regular game, there's usually one person (me) who handles the villain and environment in addition to their hero.  But with Vengeance, each player has a villain to manage, and my players weren't mentally prepared for that.  They don't have the habit of checking for interactions between villain cards and tracking all the minion hp and whatnot.  It ended up working out fine, but it was slow going.

Of course, playing all-new heroes against a super-complex all-new villain for our first Vengeance game probably didn't help either.  In retrospect, a game with new heroes against old villains would have been a better warmup, followed by a game with old heroes against the new villains.

One other thing that didn't help, I'm still waiting for the rest of the Vengeance art, so I don't have accessories completed for most of this set, which meant that we were using just the cards and token that come with the game, no custom oversized stuff.  I don't know how you people do it!  The hero cards are so tiny!  The oversized villain cards were better than the old two-card models, but they're still slow to scan during a game.  And keeping track of hp by shlepping tokens around and making change everytime someone gets poked?  Fuggetaboutit!  I can't wait until I can finish my Vengeance set of accessories and play a real game again. :)

Even with all of that though, my wife announced after the one game that she has a new favorite hero in The Sentinels.  We still had fun. :)

10

Actually Vengeance HAS been advertised as such. Which is why I think some of us think of it as a stand alone expansion.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gtgames/sentinels-of-the-multiverse-shattered-timelines/posts/353695

 

However the tune changed as seen in this interview with Christopher to that of a mega-expansion

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/26606.html (under Do your need the base game to play it?)

 

So when watching a video on BGG about SotM:Vengeance by Gaming Trent he calls it a stand alone expansion.   (No I'm not saying Graming Trent makes up all of the video bloggers out there, but he is one and he has made the statement as well - which means someone that watches him will think "Stand Alone Expansion")

 

Regardless, my point wasn't to bring up the symantics of this expansion, my main point was to bring up something I thought was an oversight, especailly if people are new players coming to the game.  Maybe to get either a slightly revised manual for someone new, or even a sheet of paper that says "Oops! we forgot to go into details about turn order for you new people out there.  Here it is!" or "Go to this website!" Until  G> can update Vengeance for a 2nd printing.  

11

I think just a note pointing out the online Rulebook would be fine.

12

 

Is her new favorite hero The Sentinels?

13

Her new favorite hero is The Sentinels.

14

Wait, I'm not understanding. Who is your wife's new favourite hero?

15

![](upload://oMlToDpypOYFnfq1RRFmdR5ZQRS.gif)

16

All of them? Yeah, my friend Jacob is about the same way.

17

It's not my fault they named that super team after the entire game. 

18

They didn't. They named an entire game after a small superhero team.

19

Because it sounds better than "Freedom 5 of the Multiverse".

20

Prime Wardens of the Multiverse would be pretty sweet.