Who do you think would win...

General GTG Sentinel Comics Lore
21

This is true in the normal game, but in PVP the game is fast and all about focusing down key opponents.  Tachyon's redirection is much better than Tempest's heal, his heal is rarely usefull enough to forego damage (unless the Scholar is involved, or your choice is his base power or the heal and you have no good one-shots to play instead.)

Damage prevention trumps healing, and ongoing destruction trumps both (since both are almost always done with ongoing or equip cards).  When your targets all have 34 health or less, quick burst damage is the real king.  Synaptic is a crushing PVP card, because it redirects back to your team, so you either avoid hitting Tach with big shots or use an ongoing destruction to get rid of it first.

22

In an actual PvP game, I think the FF win handily as well, due to their sheer breadth of damage manipulation.  Smoke Bombs and a ton of Legacy's cards grant all-important control over incoming damage.  On top of that, the Smoke Bombs (and, really, Wraith's whole setup) are virtually indestructible in a PvP game, since heroes almost never get "Destroy an Equipment card" effects.

Indeed, this advantage is so powerful, if I were going to regularly have SotM PvP matches, I think I would introduce some variant rule such as, "each time a Character Target takes damage, reduce all damage from enemy sources by one until the start of that Character's next turn," just to have a reason for people to do something other then mash on the enemy's weakest guy until they go down, and repeat.

Ironic

P.S. Belatedly, it does occur to me that the Prime Wardens do have every method I know of to "legitimately" (I.E., not things that were meant to only sacrifce your own or an ally's cards) get rid of Equipment as a hero: End of Days, Into The Stratosphere, and Cedistic Dissonant, so maybe the equipment thing isn't such a huge edge in this specific match - especially not when half of the FF have no Ongoing destruction at all.

23

We play that any hero card that destroys villain ongoing also can target equipment.  Since Villains don't have equipment it helps balance the games, because the only way for heroes to destroy equipment is usually their own, unless you allowed Unity to target her opponents equipment to turn into golems, in which case Unity would be unstoppable.  Otherwise it is just too rough on ongoing based heroes as their stuff is constantly destroyed while someone like the Wraith is unstoppable.  If you play that way the Wardens have way too much destruction for the F4 to win very often.

If you only allow ongoing destruction than Bunker and Wraith are killers, but Legacy is going to do nothing but watch his cards die.

I'm actually going to play this match-up today, just have to pick the environment.

24

I just finished playing this matchup (with no Environment, and anti-Environment cards targetting Equipment instead), and it was a total blowout in favor of the Freedom Four - only Tachyon went down, all the rest of them had over 10 HP, while Fortitude, Lead From The Front, and Smoke Bombs were all in play, so even a LOT more damage would have only had moderate effect.  However, I attribute the win less to the FF's damage manipulation abilities than to the Prime Wardens' laughably bad draws - Haka never got a damaging One-Shot (and only drew weapons in the last two turns), Fanatic only got one healing card and no Aegis, End Of Days, or (the most terrifying PvP card among all eight decks) Wrathful Retribution, and Tempest only got one damaging One-Shot, and no damaging Ongoings besides a Localized Hurricane (which was obviously too risky to play).  Draws like that would leave you struggling to beat Ambuscade, much less the Freedom Four.

Ironic

25

Neat stuff–I wonder how the PW would do with a better draw.

How did you run the turns:  one side then the other or alternating?  Did you do a mid-round environment draw as well?

I might help "add some data" to the project if I'm feeling up to it tonight…

26

Alternating.  Specifically, it was Argent Adept, Legacy, Fanatic, Wraith, Tempest, Tachyon, Haka, Bunker.

And, as I said, I didn't use an Environment.  That mechanic exists to keep fights against the same villain from being too similar to each other, but with eight 45-card decks to draw from, and all of them actually making decisions rather than having the "A.I." of the Villains, I didn't think that would be a factor, so much as yet another thing for me to keep track of in my eight-player solo game.

27

This conversation reminds me of the current run in the New 52 Justice League of America ongoing.  Steve Trevor and Amanda Waller round up a team of heroes (and some grey area capes) to take out the Justice League if they ever get out of hand (Martian Manhunter vs. Superman, Catwoman vs. Batman, Vibe vs. The Flash, etc.).  It's been...well, sort of good some of the time (as most New 52 is, short of Aquaman and Dial H for Hero which are both amazing).  The point is, would The Prime Wardens each have one hero subdue, neutralize, or tie-up one other hero on the Freedom Four?  Do they just take on whoever they can take on at the moment?  A mix of both, with a hero having a primary target with secondary responsibilities for managing the opposing team as a whole?

Also (I hope this isn't derailing the topic) who do you folks think would be YOUR Freedom Four Busting or Prime Wardens Busting team would be?

EDIT:  Minor point, Ironic, but there are 41 cards per hero, with 1 character card and 40 cards in the deck.

28

Played this at the Block, with ongoing destruction destroying either equip or ongoing (although I really like the idea of no environment and enviro targetting equip).

We flip at the start, then put the heroes in play order first to last (alternating teams) and the person who puts a hero in play first is the first to play.  The order was Legacy-Tempest-Tachyon-Haka-Wraith-Adept-Bunker-Fanatic.  (Fanatic last for end of days going off right away)

Legacy got fortitude and next evolution at the start, and drew Lead from the front his first turn.  Haka went after wraith and Tach with Taiaha first turn, wraith pulled razor ord. and bunker had flak cannon and G-gun so Argent Adept dropped quickly, he had Temepst play two cards before he died.

AA started boosting lightning damage as Tempest got Lightning storm and sub-wave enducer.  Legacy could absorb Tempest or Haka but not both, after a chain lightning and all lightning boosted round Legacy focused on stopping the lightning rather than Haka, and a HoB later Wraith and Tach were at 6 health.

Bunker, Tempest, Haka and Legacy had -1 damage, Wraith had razor, utility belt and stun bolts, Bunker had grenade, Flak, G-Gun and armor (no turret mode the whole game)  Tach had synaptic, Fanatic did not have absolution, tempest had the same as above and Haka had Taiaha when the Block dropped Defensive Displacement.

With Legacy able to tank the one shots from Tempest (-3 damage) and Haka with an empty hand there was almost no damage being done.  Tach got her hand up, Fanatic got consecrated ground and Tempest got Ball lightning.  Tempest kills Lead from the front and synaptic following Legacy's turn, then Haka Rampages and Taiaha, dropping Tach and Wraith to 3 health.  Wraith stealths and Tach puts out a second Synaptic (she had nothing else to play) Fanatic plays consecrated ground, destroying the bubble (2 prison breaks had all five inmates out), eating Wraiths shield and dropping Tach to one health, whe then attacked wraith putting them both at one health for the environment turn, where Char killed both of them.

With boosts from Wraith (destroying ongoing) and Tach and a new Lead from the front Legacy and Bunker drop Fanatic the rest of the way (she was the only person taking damage when the bubble was out) and nearly pulled off the comeback, but Tempest drew reclaim, Fanatic let him play it to get ball lightning back, which he destroyed lead from the front and bunkers armor, then Haka played punish the weak and with Argent giving him a second power Bunker was dead.  Legacy held on for three turns with all the help he was getting (cards from trash to hand and play really helped) but in the end he could only negate one type of damage and Tempest got a second inducer, played in on fanatic's turn (so wraith couldn't destroy it) and lightning slash ended it.

It was a great match, closer than I expected, but Tempest and Haka got their reduction and damage, so there wasn't much hope for the F4.  Haka ended with 19hp, Tempest with 5.  If Legacy had lasted one more turn Tempest would have died and Legacy probably would have beaten Haka.  By probably I mean only the Environment deck could have killed him at that point.

Legacy was a beast to deal with, and he only raised damage twice.  The damage was heavily favoring Wardens, but Legacy tanking was really rough for them to deal with.  In the end it was Ball lightning that won the game, even if it was limited to only ongoing the result probably would have been the same, although if it was enough to get Tempest down before Legacy the fight would have reversed.  with eight heroes it was a long fight, nearly two hours.

29

Really?  It reminds me of every event comic for the past five years.  Really, the whole "superheroes fight each other" thing has become a pretty unbearable cliché for me - it was cool at first, but now it'd be surprising to see them all team up, instead.

And, no, taking things back into flavor concerns is the very opposite of threat derailing, all things considered.

To bust the Freedom Five, I really think there are three main obstacles to overcome: you need to mess up their teamwork and co-ordination (as augmented by Legacy's experience, Wraith's preparation, Tachyon's fast assessments, and especially Bunker's tactics), you need to keep Legacy busy (he's strong and tough enough to be almost impossible to take out of a fight decisively, and if you let him leverage that into protecting his allies, too, you lose), and you need to stop Tachyon before she does anything dangerous (a genius speedster is just too unpredictable).  My answers are:

  • For the first task, I want Visionary.  Nothing like telepathy and illusions to keep a group off-balance.
  • For the second, Nightmist - she can lock up Voss and Cthulhu in her mists, surely she can contain Legacy long enough to thin the ranks of his allies.  
  • For the last, Tempest.  A tornado cannot be dodged, and his technology is beyond even Dr. Stinson's experience.  
  • That's a lot of fragile bodies, so I would round out the team with Haka, to take hits and crack open powered armor.

To bust the (known) Prime Wardens, you have a different set of obstacles: Argent Adept needs to go down instantly (before his nigh-omnipotent powers can do... whatever he tries to do), you need to counter Tempest's ability to control the battlefield, and you need to be able to immobilize Haka and Fanatic, both of whom are super strong and would just come back from the dead if killed.  For these jobs, I'll pick:

  • Expatriette to take down the Adept.  She's whiny and has no powers, but clearly she knows how to quickly kill an enemy with a foce field even if it makes no sense, and that's what I need.
  • The only counter I can think of to Tempest is Legacy.  Flight, invulnerability, and danger sense combine to make a man who can keep an awful lot of inclement weather off his allies.
  • More unstoppable people to lock down, and it would be lame to name Nightmist again, so I think I'll pick The Scholar.  He's virtually indestructible, too, probably more mobile than Haka, and certainly a skilled enough philosopher to reliably goad Fanatic into attacking him.  He can keep the Prime Wardens' toughest members focused on him for a solid after Kingdom Come, more than enough time for the remaining Wardens to be dealt with.
  • I have pointed out before that the Prime Wardens are, with the exception of Haka, a team of mystics who know nothing about mysticism. So, to complete my buster force, I'll take Ra, adding more firepower (heh), and perhaps more crucially, more magical knowledge.  Between him and The Scholar, this team might be able to shut down most the Wardens without even fighting.

Ironic

30

After playing the PVP match I was thinking about the matchups between the two groups, and I think the big factor is flight.  Legacy can shut down Hka on a battlefield just by being more mobile and strong enough to deal with him, Haka has to be tanked or kited, and that falls to Tachyon and Legacy.  Argent Adept can get airborne, which makes him unhittable by Tachyon, but a target for the ranged heroes.  I don't think that bubble moves fast enough to be a hard target to hit.

Bunker is the big threat to AA as he is a weapons platform, but he isn't fast and can't fly, so Haka would destroy him pretty quick, again putting Legacy in a role of keeping Haka occupied.  Tempest needs to keep Tachyon from assisting Legacy with HAka, because as soon as Legacy is freed from Haka duty AA is going down fast.  I think Tempest can do that, Lightning is faster than Tachyon and you can't run through it, and if he can bring that hail storm enough to mess up her footing, he'll slow her down enough to keep her from making a big impact.  The problem there is Tempest is throwing down really hard, and I don't think he can keep that up very long.  Basically if Tempest can go all-out long enough he can occupy Wraith and Tachyon while Fanatic and Haka go after Bunker.

So currently we have Haka and Legacy paired up, Tempest throwing down to keep Wraith and Tachyone occupied, which leaves Fanatic to deal with Bunker before AA is taken out.  I wouldn't risk AA getting in Tachyon's range, as she'd be tough for him to handle.  If The Wardens can pull this off, freeing the adept to do his thing, I expect he's enough to help Tempest keep going full tilt and give Fanatic an advantage over Bunker, or help her mess with Legacy enough to let Haka get to Bunker.  I really don't think that armor suit is up for wrestling with Haka, and I bet Bunker would be out of commission very quickly.  (think Hulk vs. non-flying Iron man, it doesn't last long)  The hope for the F4 is wraith vs. Tempest, if Wraith can cause a "going all out" Tempest trouble, then Tachyon is going to set up some situation where Haka charges right into Tempest, Legacy is free to ground AA and Bunker is in a duel with Fanatic.

The key is Legacy's flight and Tachyon's speed disrupting Haka and frustrating him into making a mistake that ends with an ally on the wrong side of a Haka Rampage.

This projection is based on the idea that a supported Tempest is as amazing in real life as he is in game (Embolden + AA support boosting Tempest is just godly)  His only weakness is his HP, which isn't a big problem vs the F4, as they deal more multiple hits of low damage then big shots.  However if the fight goes a bit too long and Bunker gets the OC charged it's lights out for Tempest, or if Tach gets going so fast she goes lightspeed on him.  The crux for F4 is keeping Haka occupied so he doesn't crush one of their members out of the fight and making it an easy mismatch, the crux for Wardens is protecting AA.

It really is a close call, and it will be interesting once we get the fifth Warden to revisit this with AZ and the 5th Warden.

31

My anti-F4 team would be Omnitron-X (too much projectile and melee damage on F4) Expat (she can hang damage with Bunker and Wraith), Visionary and Haka.  With Vis-Haka you can change Haka's damage so Legacy can't tank him, and you can destroy Legacy's important ongoings or feed Haka for his big smashes.

The aim would be Haka being harder to stop, Expat dealing early damage, Omnitron being really tough, even more so with reactive, Visionary being tougher than AA to focus down, and all the support you need for your two damage dealers.  The weakness is if Expat goes down quick and Vis doesn't get to TtE.

Vs. The Wardens I'd go Legacy, Crono-ranger, Ra and Tachyon.  I think with this team you could afford to go right after Haka or Tempest right off the bat.  Not a lot of card destruction, but I think you can focus down the Warden's key players without having to destroy too much stuff.  Out of game I'd focus Tempest, then AA.  Ra and Ranger can really turn on the damage (esp with Legacy around) and if you can turn the game into a shootout Legacy can tank Haka and if Tempest can be dealt with it's over.

32

I'm not sure everyone understands the power Argent actually has outside his supporting abilities.

Lets take a look at Cedistic Dissonant, Argent has split the TCF Conquerer in half.

Polyorphic Flare, that is a beam that is not only strong enough to go through 2 bodies, but one of those bodies is wearing future armor. That's gotta be some durable stuff, right?

His Silver Shadows are capable of pulling off neat tricks too. The true power of these things and what all they can be used for are unknown, but considering game wise they can do use and accompany, one of which is Argent use another power. So out of game terms, even if he can only have 1 at a time, it could anywhere to having a a quarter to half another Argent around.

Argent is also able to heal 5 HP to himself every round, while still healing 4 other people by 1. Argent isn't as fragile as his HP lets on.

Counterpoint Bulwark depicts Argent standing infront of the Arachnoid, judging by the flavour text it is having a hard time getting through Argent's shield. Continue showing that he does have some defensive ability.

Scherzo of Frost and Flame depicts him actually incasing someone (I think GloomWeaver, but the bone structure looks slightly off) in ice. That could leave somebody out of commission for a bit if he lands it.

 

So this is what I have picked up about Argent. I don't count him to be a fagile, casting support spells on his allies to make them better, that may be more fitting for his Silver Shadow. While AA will be right in the action, making swiss cheese of Bunker's armor.

33

If Legacy and Fanatic are the only two that can fly (maybe I should say fly WELL, since it sounds like AA can fly too), why don't they end up fighting each other?  Tachyon could probably keep Haka distracted (just run in cirlces around him) long enough for Bunker and the Wraith to take care of AA and/or Tempest. 

34

I don't think Adept is fragile, I just don't think he's fast.  He performs to activate his abilities, so given time and space he's ridiculously powerful, I think he would struggle fighting Tachyon because she would hit him before he got his songs going.  Like how he plays in game, if you jump on him before he gets his stuff set up he dies quickly, once he is set up he is a force, before then he's vulnerable.

I would see Adept pulling out his bell only to have it slapped away by Tachyon flying by, now if someone stops her and he gets playing, then she's gonna have trouble dealing with him.  Or he starts to sing and gets jabbed in the throat by Wraith, this is the kind of stuff I would see stopping the Adept in real life.  He's great against a huge slow flagship, or a giant lumbering creation thing, but against someone fast he'd be in trouble.

35

I'm fairly certain he can hold his own against things other than slow objects. I don't think game speed 100% accurately portrays their real life battles. Tachyon probably always enters a battle with her HUD Goggles on. Legacy can switch on his Inspiring Presence at anytime. Fanatic is always wielding Absolution. So I think it would be safe to assume that Argent knows all his songs and will be having his instruments in easy reach. Seeing as Instrumental Conjuration depicts Instruments flying around him, it doesn't seem like it would be hard to switch between them.

Plus I don't think all his powers actually rely on him singing or using an instrument. Refering back to Polyorphic Flare, he isn't carrying an instrument and if he was singing, I don't see why Seige Breaker wouldn't do something to prevent the singing. He was able to create a energy beam while under pressure, so he has a list of stuff he can do without music. What is that list? I don't know, but there is the chance he can do anything without music, the music may amplify it to incredible power.

36

Instrumental Conjuration art isn't mid-fight, it's him calling on the other virtuoso's to lend him their instruments, I doubt he's doing that while fighting.  In Cedistic Dissonant he is destroying an ancient artifact of great power to do what he's doing, he's got limited ability to destroy flagships, and Polyphoric flare he is sacrificing health to use his powers in a situation artwise when he is being prevented from doing so normally.

The entire idea of a virtuoso of the void points to powers that manipulate reality in subtle ways, subtle ways that add up to a big advantage, if he's allowed to.  If he's putting up his bulwark to keep himself safe, he isn't helping everyone else too.  At least two of his cards have him playing instruments, and almost every card he is in a passive role.  I don't think he's a dangerous one on one fighter, he seems to stick with others and let them do the work while he boosts them, if he can take fighters one on one while doing all this other stuff then why isn't he?  Legacy leade from the front, most of his deck is him hitting or getting hit physically, Argent Adept has one card with physical combat involving him, and it's a guy on his back.  If Adept wants to burn health every turn to still use his music based powers while Legacy pounds on him I'm sure he can, but I doubt it is going to end well.

37

@phantaskippy: about your run-throught the fight. If Tempest fell and it was Haka vs Legacy, it would have been a draw since Incapacitated Tempest would have prevented all melee damage to Haka. Then the only way it could move forward was Haka getting Savage Mana, feeding on the environment and hitting Legacy with either Melee or Toxic, whatever he couldn't block. So the win would still probably go to the Wardens.

38

You are correct, hadn't even thought to check Tempest's incap abilities.  Savage Mana is an ongoing and Wraith wouldn't have let that survive.  So that would be a draw.

Definitely need to have Visionary, Nightmist, Fixer, or Ra on the team to fight the F4.  Incap ongoing destruction would be big vs. Legacy.  Strange that Ra and Fixer both destroy ongoing once they are incapacitated when they can't do so in the fight.

39

Depending on turn order and Environment deck, it technically might be possible for Haka to play Savage Mana, take out an Environment target, and then be granted an extra power use (say, by The Argent Adept) to nuke it for one damage before Legacy's next turn.  Do any of the Incapacitated Freedom Three have healing?

(Though, personally, I would still count this as a draw, as the two invulnerable powerhouses entering stalemate just feels right to me, it's important to consider the most absurd endings to the match.)

40

Haka could play Haka of Battle, discarding enough to do the killing blow to Legacy, than on his next turn he would play Savage Mana and use that power doing damage equal to what he has discarded. So he doesn't even need to kill any targets to use it, just have to get his damage increased a bit.