I had not considered that… awesome.
One on One full power Haka vs full power Legacy, outside of the card game, Haka has no chance. Iron Legacy is still Legacy. Its not like Iron Legacy got an additional shot of super power juice. Legacy, outside of his little kryponian like weakness, is pretty much unstoppable. If Legacy can single handedly take on the Freedom 6 (and everyone else for that matter), the Freedom 5 is certainly more than capable of easily dispatching the Prime Wardens if it really came down to a serious no-hold-back kinda fight. Thats not even close.
If we are talking inside the card mechanics thats a different story though.
oh, yeah, I find it kind of weird you can do that. Same as Ra with Scorched Earth and Drawn to the Flame. There you have a situation where Solar Flare is good as it is.
Still, Next Evolution is not Limited, right? So Legacy just needs an extra one to make it a stalemate (not sure about other Incap abilities though, recalled Tempest's one since it's quite unique).
I'm really going to have to disagree with this. I think his anger has increased his power quite significantly. Look at Final Evolution, the stuff on his glove is the formula that Baron Blade had created as a weakness for the Parson family. The fact that he is able to stand while covered in the stuff shows that Iron Legacy is far tougher than Legacy ever thought of being.
Ill give you that. But the point is, that legacy can reach that point. That potential is there. If we are talking about a no holds bar fight with everyone at their peak going for broke against each other, there is no question that Legacy could take on the prime wardens by his lonesome, let alone having support behind him.
I don't think he can freely reach that point unless someone has made him go into a blind anger. So unless someone has killed Young Legacy right before that fight, I don't see Legacy being that strong. After all Legacy is not Superman, he probably doesn't lives in a world made of cardboard. Only have his daughter's death in a certain timeline does it come to that. I think Haka has more strength and endurance than Legacy, while Legacy has more dexterity and agility.
[quote="Ronway"]
Foote wrote:
Its not like Iron Legacy got an additional shot of super power juice.
I'm really going to have to disagree with this. I think his anger has increased his power quite significantly. Look at Final Evolution, the stuff on his glove is the formula that Baron Blade had created as a weakness for the Parson family. The fact that he is able to stand while covered in the stuff shows that Iron Legacy is far tougher than Legacy ever thought of being.
[/quote] I am reasonably certain that stuff is on Pauline's glove, and she is not "standing" so much as "being knifed to death".
Anyway, you can look at Iron Legacy however you want to, but for my money, ä version of this character who was a villain took them all on at once" just isn't an acceptable precedent. Yes, of course when a hero turned evil they fought all the other heroes at once. That's what heroes who turn evil do. Of, say, Batman, Superman, and Martian Manhunter, each of those three has effortlessly dispatched both of the other two, due to the powers of Suddenly Being The Antagonist.
But, of course, sloppily falling back on narrative conventions instead of in-story logic is something to be avoided. So how does one look at Iron Legacy? There's the "World of Cardboard" approach, in which Legacy is always capable of that power, but holding WAY back (in which case, it surely wouldn't help in a fight with the Prime Wardens - if he's holding back like this against Voss, he'll still do it against heroes in a case of mistaken identities/mind control/jurisdiction dispute/alien aggresion spores/whatever). I have put forward the idea of "super-adrenaline" that regular Legacy rarely has (Surge of Strength), but Iron Legacy has been riding for decades - this also would not factor into the fight described. In my own games, I've also toyed with the idea that Iron Legacy really did get extra shots of "super juice" - notably, the drugs used by Spite, surviving due to his superhuman physiology, to make himself strong enough to police the world alone (and furthering his slide into darkness) - if you go that way, it's clear that modern Legacy is not in the same boat.
Still, you don't really need all that. You certainly could just say that Modern Legacy is exactly as strong as Iron Legacy in every way, and his game balance (in which he tends not to even be a primary damage-dealer) is strictly a form of gameplay and story segregation. And that's a fine explanation, too, supported by canon - but, to me, it's about the most boring explanation possible. Radical gulfs in superhero power making it hard to see why some major heroes are relevant (how is Wolverine helping Thor, again?) are something I really dislike in superhero continuities, so getting to picture one where that issue is largely reduced (if not completely - how is Expatriette helping Ra, again?) is something I really like about SotM flavor. So I, at least, will take any number of other explanations before that.
Ironic
It's Paul Parson's glove. Final Evolution is depicted through the eyes of Legacy who has just witnessed the death of his daughter on the hands of Baron Blade. Blade is currently holding Pauline on the ground with his left hand, while looking into Paul's eyes. Paul has his right hand raised, and has just crushed one of Baron Blade's viles that contains the formula to weaken the Parson's bloodline. This is seconds before that same fist has pulverized Baron Blade.
For the sake of "who would win in a fight" senarios, the only fair way to predict an outcome is to pit each contestant at their peak maximum power level. Whether someone would hold back or not against "friends" is and should be totally irrelevant, as you could make the same case about any of the heros taking part in this senario.
With that said, we have to consider Legacy at his peak performance level. Iron Legacy is the manifestation of his true raw power potential. This is how we must consider him.
Now if we take a look at the narrative cannon, I think we can infer that Haka and Iron Legacy will eventually come to a stalemate, mostly due to Hakas endurance and healing factor which make it hard for Legacy to deal lasting damage. But I think that holds true in the reverse. We see through the card art and flavor text that Haka threw the hardest punch he could at Iron Legacy and he didn't flinch. Since Haka is alive during the final wasteland timeline, we know he survived Iron Legacys rule, and I am sure it wasn't because IL just let him go.
Thats what the F4 vs Wardens will eventually come down to in the end, no matter how you want to slice it. Haka vs Legacy fighting to an ultimate standstill.
If you're taking each hero from where they are most "physically" powerful, than you would be using Iron Legacy. At which point the fight would be Iron Legacy versus the other members of the Freedom Four and Prime Wardens.
Do we know that The Final Wasteland is in the "Iron Legacy" timeline? I'm not disagreeing with you or anything, I've just not heard any confirmation of what timeline FW is part of.
From my understanding, the Final Wasteland is the ultimate conclusion for all timelines. Its why CON has Chrono go back in time and alter the past in (hopfully) significant and calculated ways in order to prevent at least one of the timelines from meeting this fate.
Edit: I do not think I was right. From the FW bio: "In one of the timelines in the multiverse…" seems to imply it is but one possible future, not the absolute future of all timelines. Although, I think any timeline has the potential to turn down this path. Really, any timeline that does not see Plauge Rat totally eradicated will eventually lead to the "Rat Men" revolution that is alluded to have occured.
It sounds like we are discussing the Hulk. If we get Legacy really angry, he'll grow even more powerful. . . or is that Star Wars?
Iron Legacy doesn't hold back, that's his strength, he'll fight dirty, he'll cheat, he'll use innocents as tools to force the Heroes hand. Legacy won't. Legacy won't kill while he still thinks he can win without doing so, he won't cheat, he won't use weapons or armor. Legacy is setting an example for the world, Iron Legacy is just out to win.
Legacy would defeat Haka 1v1, because he can be immune to melee damage, Haka would have to use savage mana with either a giant hand of cards to Haka of Battle, or a whole lot of environment cards under Savage mana, is he going to last long enough to pull that off. Out of game, how bad can Legacy hurt Haka? I don't think Haka can die, so Legacy would eventually lose just by growing old and dying. Haka can't beat LEgacy, because Legacy can take Haka's beatings. I imagine the actual fight involve them wrestling, and then Legacy just flying him to the North Pole to cool his heels for a while, let him wait for a ship to get back, or swim.
In neither of Haka's Incapacitated sides is he dead, or even badly wounded, Legacy is in really bad shape on his. So I'm calling it a draw, with LEgacy's flight and Haka's immortality balancing each other.
In the game I played it would be a very long time before the game ended. Haka had one card in hand, and Legacy can heal every turn Bunker can stack damage prevention and Fanatic can match with adding damage, no one can make Haka draw a card, fanatic can heal Haka but when she does Haka loses ground on Bunker prevention. The environment deck would be key, because Legacy gets immunity and Haka doesn't. No way the F4 is going to destroy Punish the weak (was big in killing Bunker), Mere, or Taiaha with Haka of Battle and Savage Mana out that means Fanatic's buffs can't fall more than one turn off of Bunkers or Legacy survives and can start healing up (at least 4 hp per turn). Only the time crazed prisoner deals melee, so if Argent can keep Haka from dying to the environment without Fanatic having to help so that damage boosted was equal to damage prevented they could win once Haka could discard 35 cards with HoB.
Immune to melee damage is a mechanic of the card game. Are we talking about who would win within the structure of the card game or within the narrative the game explores? Lets not mix the two
Both. I assume most Heroes can do what they can in game, with differences due to the nature of the game being a game. Legacy is harmable, but he is also immune to harm. Next Evolution sets that up pretty well, unless there is an explanation the Creators have given that I am unaware of.
This thread has been covering both in-game and out, and the results honestly should be similar. The world was created with the game in mind, if they are creating a game world that the game can't represent then what are they doing?
I like the idea that Legacy can handle any damage you throw at him, as long as he can prepare for it, other than that he is just really tough, but when he sees that missile coming and grabs a hold of it, he can take that blast like it was nothing.
Ok well legacy wins because he can be immune to any damage type. Discussion over I guess now.
The Next Evolution is one of those cards (like Research Grant and End of Days and Jim's Hat so on) which has a name and theme which certainly reflect the character, but mechanics very loosely tied to those things at best. The name, art, and flavor of Next Evolution all deal with how each new member of the Legacy bloodline has a new power - in this case, Pauline Felicia Parsons' development of the Atomic Glare. In game terms, it allows the current Legacy to develop one specific power (immunity to a type of damage), in the middle of a fight, repeatedly, and with a limited duration. That's a pretty large disconnect, and I don't think you should confuse its gameplay meaning with its story meaning, or vise versa.
Ironic
Thats kind of the problem with a hero vs hero hypothetical scenario. If you go by their card interactions, its hard to judge. Every hero has interactions that are ridiculous if they could be played over and over again without penalty. So when going by card interactions, do we assume that they have access to everything all the time, or is it randomized? I mean, if Legacy had all his ongoings out from teh start, and access to every takedown/interception in the game, and could be immune to two things EVERY round while redirecting damage...(and would any of their cards WORK given that they are all heroes and most cards specify non-hero targets?)? I mean, if you go by the cards, Legacy being immune to Melee mostly shuts down Haka- no mattter how many haka of battles he has. And just to be sure, lets make him immune to Toxic too.
So lets look at it narratively. even then there are difficulties, as you have to pretty muc force a confrontation- temporary insanity, weird magic, cross-dimensional travels, Evil twins, etc. Basically, everyone is too moral to use their full strength. No killing means pulling your punches and no flying your enemies into low earth orbit.
you know what? the Wraith would win. She'd figure out what was making everyone fight and fix it.
you know what? the Wraith would win. She'd figure out what was making everyone fight and fix it.
I was epecting a reference to grappling hook there. Although it probably is the solution to whatever the problem is.
Not to bring up a point already discussed, but my internet time has been limited and I saw something missed when you guys were discussing AA's power. He does have a song which, given time to play, is absolutely devastating and shows him on the offensive. I can't remeber the name, but it the song that allows him to destroy ongoing or environment cards, which under one of the PvP rules is ongoing, equipment, and environment cards, and shows him blasting a large chunk off of Akash'bhuta's face.
He's more comfortable helping his team, but he can throw down.
Also, the demon thing on Scherzo of Frost and Flame is not Gloomweaver, I believe it is a projection from the Dreamer, but I can't remember exactly. If it isn't I suspect we'll be seeing it in a deck here soon.