Since the other post has started to trend in an acrimonious direction, I hereby declare Alternate Timelines! All posts opposed to the Definitive Edition go here. All posts in favor, go to the other one. Begin!
Right now I am leaning on the Booooo side of things. I have already spent over $400 on the game and am feeling bamboozled. If they release some sort of update pack I might come around, but then we will most likely have very unmatched art.
"Final Expansion," "Multiverse ends here," "Final Sentinels of the Multiverse Card Game Kickstarter" were all things said in the Oblivaeon campaign.
Please give us a way to update our games.
Paul has said there will be a conversion document.
There will be a compatibility document, which will allow you to mix-and-match Enhanced Edition and Definitive Edition content. There will not be a document or product that will allow you to transform your Enhanced Edition products into their Definitive Edition counterparts. The number of changes is far too great for that to be possible.
I guess that puts me firmly in the Booooo category then.
Yeah, having come somewhat late to the "having my own physical copy" camp, and spending the last couple of years amazing, well, just about everything (don't have a few of the singles), I'm of mixed feelings about this. I get it, I like the concept (the Rook City heroes needed an update, if nothing else, but somehow I doubt they will be), and I got really excited when they brainstormed scenarios on the Letters Page.
But I'm a bit put off by the cost, right now.
Booooo is too strong a term for my feelings, but the downsides do seem to out number the upsides right now. First edition just has so much more content, plus the Cauldron stuff coming to the digital version soon, that even if the decks in the big box are 50% more fun to play with then the pre-exsisting it will take a few expansions before they are even in the same weight class, and the kind of tepid respounce does have me slightly worried this product line might not have the legs to go the distance. Which might make investing in it kind of risky.
And I do like the more colorful and bright art style of the old game more. The differing art styles are cool and its always cool when we see the sentinels characters reimagined as how they might appear in different comic periods, but for the core game I personally would value consistency of aesthetic more. Particarly as a jumping in point.
All signs right now point to Handleabra making a digital version of DE if it goes well and if so thats likely where I will try it out first. Maybe a few kickstarters down the line jump in, espically if they have some catch up bundles. The ongoing death of in person game nights makes it a low pirority.
My concerns:
-Timing. It's not that long since the previous ultimate version was done, AND its coming out more or less at the same time as Freedom Five game, not long after the RPG, so people heavily invested in the IP will have reasons to think they're being asked for more money. I'm not saying that is the intent, I'm just pointing out why people will have that impression
-Inconsistent art. The original artwork is much more TV animated cartoon level than comic book, and for largely the same reasons in trying to get a lot of it done at high speed, but at least when you put decks down alongside each other they seem to be part of the same universe. The mixed eras in the new art are jarring and that's even within a single deck from what I've seen. It's a cute idea, but I feel like the practicalities means that it should have been used in a different way
-Lack of support for existing users. The fact that a rules update is going to let you play with decks from the previous version does suggest that for the bulk of the decks the tweaks are fairly minor, so why not have versions of the heavily changed decks available in the old art style which the company still owns? If only a few cards in a deck are actually changed, those cards can be redone in small enhancement packs, or offered as a pdf for people to print and drop in a sleeve over the original card. On top of the timing, this just feels frustrating - "Hey, we've heard your complaints, and now at the costs of completely replacing everythig you already have, we can sell you something new". I get that you don't want to undermine the new edition by supporting the old one, but this is something that is aggravating in the video game market with companies like EA or the Football Manager franchise, and it's disappointing that people treat something not right as something normal. At least it's not as bad as EA still selling Sims 3 which still has bugs like people spontaneously getting children and/or spouses if they travel, or friends turning in to strangers because they're invited to your graduation... I'd say that Fantasy Flight maybe get a bit too close to that business model...
After listening to the latest Letters Page, I officially have something for the Booooo category: Tarot-sized hero cards. I understand the desire to have more room for art/powers text, but dang it, it makes it impossible to keep the hero cards with the decks in the collectors box.
Considering what was said about the collector's box in the same episode it's not surprising they didn't take it into account.
I'll admit I prefer to keep the deck and character cards together. :-\ I get the impression those of us who do are not in the majority, though. :-( Seems like a lot of folks keep the character cards separate from the decks.
I'll agree it's disappointing, but given all the other things I am excited about, I'm willing to deal with it. ;-) But that's just me -- no judgement if it's an issue for others! :-)
I prefer to keep them together with the decks, especially since if you leave the variants behind, it's easy to tell which side of the dividers the decks are supposed to be on. But other people use the character cards as randomizers, so for them it would make sense to split them.
Hm... so I can understand the motivation behind the update. Like most folks here who own all the previous sets and the Big Box (and heck, even a dozen custom printed homebrew decks), I don't feel terribly motivated to start again. I might have been more tempted with just a clean-up of card wording, artwork, and some of the older heroes getting streamlined do-overs (looking at you Rook City heroes) and still have it all be compatible with everything I own. *But* it sounds like we're getting changes to the core rulesets that at-best will require a conversion document with the older cards.
Also, while I admire the artist's ability to mimic the various styles from the past, I'm really not digging the mixed-artwork concept, and I'm really not into the 4-color newsprint look.
So, best of luck, I harbor no ill-wishes to the creators and hope this brings in some new players, but I probably won't be buying any of the new materials, especially since the pandemic radically altered the social lives of me and my friends.
So, I have to say, after listening to the latest Letters Page, and the scope of changes, box contents, and kickstarter price points, I feel less "boo." Not sure where I've ended up, on balance, but it's not as bad as I thought. Just seems like bad timing due to the FF board game also launching, but from the sounds of it, they can't afford NOT to do the KS this year.
All the updates and the new scenario style story mode sound really cool.
That being said, I cannot possibly see how the old version will be compatible with the DE. Listening to all the changes, the entire game is very different. I am assuming the conversion doc will offer some translations such as "bury means this" or "equipment is now item" but there are complete rework of decks (Bunker has ordinance cards, loading mechanics, etc). Also, environments are completely redesigned and environment destruction is mostly removed from the game as most environment cards now act as ongoing/one shot/health based.
Honestly, this is basically a new game and you will need to assess if another $300-400 is worth it over the next 6 years.
What does "from the sounds of it, they can't afford NOT to do the KS this year" mean (I didn't listen to the podcast)? Are they running out of money or something?
No. This is from the WT notes of the episode
>
> As such, they will be launching a Kickstarter for this new set at the end of March. Why a return to Kickstarter? They don't know what the interest in this as a product will be. How big of an audience will want it? They're sure that there is an audience, but whether that audience is in the hundreds or tens of thousands, they don't know.
It's more that they can't do this without doing a KS for it because thanks to the pandemic and resulting lack of flow from distributors they just wouldn't have the extra cash to do it and would have to wait. They literally need the money to make it with.
I'm hoping that it isn't a literal in-general "if this KS doesn't succeed we're screwed" thing versus just holding off on this specific project.
Might be worth bringing up during this month's Bullpen, either by letter or as an LP chat question though, just for clarification.
It won’t be a conversion doc, it will be a compatibility doc. You won’t be able to play new Bunker or Tempest or Omnitron using your old deck and the new rules. But you will be able to play new Bunker alongside Benchmark.
There’s still some environment destruction. I imagine that old cards that say “destroy an Environment card” will be untouched but old cards that say “destroy an Ongoing or Environment card” will work on only Ongoing cards now.
The new game is 6 boxes at $60 MSRP each, $50 on Kickstarter, so they’ll be $300 total (assuming costs don’t go up). Of course, you’ll be able to get them for even less from discount retailers like Miniature Market or Game Nerdz.
Well.
I understand why this is happening, and bear GtG no ill will for it. I have had enough conversations with Christopher and Paul to see their passion for this (Adam doesn’t come to the UK expo), and I can certainly buy that this is not a money grab. But…
Goddamn does this look like a money grab. “None of our other Sentinel Comics games sell as well as SotM. Hmm… I know, let’s make SotM again to bleed more money out of our fans!” Like, sure, you’ve redone the mechanics a bit, but the $300-plus-shipping that this is going to end up costing is a kick in the teeth to those of us who’ve already spent hundreds of £/$ on a version of this game that they’re doing their best to make obsolete. Even the mostly-morally-bankrupt FFG have the decency to make their new editions substantially different, rather than just advertising them as 'our old game, but better™.
Also this. I get that they didn’t know about the DE at the time, but that doesn’t mean that they weren’t selling under false pretenses.
I want this game. I do. I’m not buying it, though - the whole thing just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.