Definitive Edition: Booooo Post! [Topic Split]

Games Sentinels of the Multiverse
#21

If you get a bad taste in your mouth from a board game company doing what every other board game company does literally all the time except in a far better way in that it is both a passion project and addresses a multitude of common fan criticisms in a way that gives us pretty much all what we asked for all this time, well. You must walk around this hobby with your mouth tasting like sewage all the time, then.

Sorry to be snippy, but, I can get where other complaints are coming from even if I don’t share them, but complaining about GTG doing an extremely common industry practice is just straight up unfair.

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#22

You’re also a playtester and can try out the DE without buying into the KS yet.

#23

If you want to be snippy, the Booooo Post is probably the best place for it!

And hey, while I think “what every other board game company does literally all the time except in a far better way” is far, far overselling what this is, I do acknowledge that other, worse companies do do this kind of thing - but those are companies I know to be wary of, in general. Seeing my favourite publisher, a company whose games I will buy largely on faith, doing the same thing just makes me sad. And hey, I’ll probably still be jumping onto whatever train is along next without much thought. Just, this one isn’t for me.

#24

So essentially you’re a board gamer who is made sad by every single major board game company in existence. Seems strange to me to torment oneself like this; have you considered a different hobby that doesn’t have 100% of it make you sad?

#25

Again: “every single major board game company in existence” is some major hyperbole. And, yes: I like board games. I don’t like capitalist greed (which I grant that this likely isn’t, but I don’t extend the same trust to, say, Asmodee). I don’t feel like this is a controversial position.

#26

Agree to disagree?

#27

It’s really not. Board games and other tabletop games get new editions all the time on a regular basis across the board (…heh). And they generally do it in much shorter timeframes than ten years, and by making changes that are much less about addressing common fan criticisms and requests.

And while I’ve certainly seen other companies get complaints for what’s in the new editions, I generally do not see them get flak solely just for making one.

Especially since, like I said, this edition is doing it better than most companies I’ve seen.

  • They’re doing it as a ten year anniversary. Ten years is a much longer timespan between versions than the average game company I’ve come across.
  • People have often criticized the art and Adam himself has long been unhappy with his earlier art, that’s getting fixed.
  • Christopher has often thought he could do better on the flavor text to make the cards better line up with the timeline, that’s been addressed.
  • They get to incorporate in the art and flavor text a lot of side characters that have been created and/or fleshed out in the meantime.
  • People have often asked for some sort of Story Mode; they addressed that.
  • People have often criticized the game is fiddly and requires too much tracking; they addressed that.
  • People have often criticized some decks like Bunker’s are weak or some decks like AZ’s are too annoying to play; they addressed that.
  • People have sometimes criticized some villains don’t scale smoothly between 3-5 heroes; they addressed that.

And so on and so on. A lot of the stuff being changed is things people have long wanted to be changed and I’ve sometimes even seen fan ideas for addressing them.

I’ll let matters of taste and so on slide, but this particular complaint just makes people come off as applying double standards. And kind of unpleasable to boot. “Here have a new version of this game which addresses things you folks have over and over said you wanted to see in it.” “Wow you’re so horribly greedy and exploitative how dare you do this”.

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#28

At the point where you’re just ignoring the things I say in order to continue being indignant, I really don’t have much else to say to you.

#29

I admit I had been considering these statements:

I apologize I didn’t realize I was supposed to treat you as not saying them; I admit I do regularly have difficulty telling what things people say I’m allowed to respond to or which ones I’m expected to gloss over. As Aeon Girl notes in her bio, social rules are confusing.

I admit I don’t have much else to say at this point either, particularly if this is the sort of response I’ll receive.

#30

I’ll also mention again @BlueHairedMeerkat as a playtester you have access to try out the DE and can make a better assessment on it.

#31

Adding that @BlueHairedMeerkat has some valid points.

It isn’t that it is 10 years after the original game came out that is bothering me personally, it is that it is only 2.5 years after fulfillment of “the end” of Sentinels.

It also isn’t the base game alone that is bothering me. They are going to re-make every single expansion (or near enough) as well.

And what does this mean for Prime? I know it is a separate company but when the campaign was running they said this would be the continuation of the Sentinels multiverse. Christopher was still the designer of all the decks so the delays on Oblivaeon compounded into this project. We are going to finally get the game (with the original game design) maybe months before this one releases. So different game, different company, but the same designer, and the decks won’t work as released with the version that is coming out mere months after.

#32

Sentinels of Earth Prime isn’t invalidated by this. It just means you need if you mix it with DE content then you need to consider items from this conversion guide https://greaterthangames.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/conversion_guide.pdf

If you are playing it with the current SotM then you don’t. Green Ronin also put out this post on it Sentinels of Earth-Prime by Chris Pramas: Green Ronin Publishing » Sentinels of Earth-Prime and the "Definitive Edition" — Kickstarter

#33

True, but by the time it’s all finished, we’ll be in 2027. OA was fully shipped at the end of 2018. This means existing OblivAeon will be about 8 years old itself by the time we reach its equivalent update. I just honestly can’t see a reason that’s an issue when a lot of tabletop companies put out new editions and they do it in far shorter timeframes.

Complain that what’s in the update doesn’t suit your tastes, sure, I will certainly agree to disagree over matters of pure taste. But complaining about it existing at all? I’m truly sorry, but I just can’t understand it.

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#34

This is… not the most encouraging read. It sounds like Green Ronin were basically blindsided by this just as their game was going to print. Obviously I have no idea about what goes on behind closed doors, but if that’s a vaguely accurate read then that’s pretty crappy of GTG.

This is true - I had looked over some of the stuff and been underwhelmed, but granted I’ve not played it. Any suggestions as to what I should try out to best showcase the new mechanics/streamlining?

#35

I’d say look at Bunker and AZ’s decks.

#36

The conversion pdf lets you use the streamlined rules with the Prime version. However, the hero/villain/environment decks are not balanced with the Definitive edition and cannot be used in the definitive edition.

#37

Honestly the SoEP environments should have less issues than the current SotM environments using that conversion doc so you can play it with DE content.

#38

Hi, BlueHairedMeerkat! Great to see you here again!

I think what GtG are doing with their communications about Definitive Edition is a touch disingenuous. I would have preferred a clearer acknowledgement that they’d promised no new stuff, but now there is new stuff. Then they could go on to make the case (quite reasonable, IMO) for coming out with a new edition.

My impression is that this is a passion project, not a pure money grab. Yes, they will be happy to make lots of money, but Adam and Christopher love this IP and this game and couldn’t let it rest when they could see SO MUCH that they wanted to improve.

I was initially extremely skeptical for a variety of reasons, but have recently tipped over into cautious optimism. I now think it’s likely that I will at least enjoy the new version and quite possibly prefer it, and I’m comforted by the fact that I sense that my primary play group seems likely to be interested in continuing to play both versions.

While I have access to the playtest materials, I decided not to participate in the playtesting (I just can’t do everything, man), so I’ve only played a couple of playtest games with very early material. Frankly, most of what I saw at that time was problematic. I’ve heard from reliable sources, though, that things have gotten very good.

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#39

Not a playtester, obvs, but certainly looking at everything that’s been previewed this is seriously one of the very few times I’ve ever come across a new version of a tabletop game and thought that it was actually addressing everything I’d want to see added or improved versus just being new.

Hence why this particular point stuck a little for me, since it feels kinda, “Why are people upset about a game company being one of the few doing this sort of thing the way you should do this? I want to encourage companies to do things right, not discourage them…”

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#40

Oh hey arenson :slightly_smiling_face: I kinda dropped off the forums - life happened - but I’ve been around, quietly making Sentinels RPG characters.

I definitely see that this is a passion project, and I think I’ve mellowed a little in the last day - having the BOO post around to rant in definitely helped - but I’ve had enough people with good intentions majorly screw with me anyway that I’m less willing to overlook behaviour for the sake of motive. And I think a major part of why Jeysie and I can’t see eye-to-eye is that I’ve found all the material I’ve seen rather underwhelming for a project advertised as ‘Sentinels, but WAY BETTER’. But I’m gonna take a look at the stuff Powerhound suggested, and maybe that’ll win me over a lil bit more.