Regarding the redirection question, I look at it differently. As I understand it, damage that is redirected away from a target T does not affect that target T, so I think redirecting away from isolated targets should be allowed. I'm on the fence about whether or not redirecting towards isolated targets should be allowed, as I think of the damage as being "owned" by its source but the damage affects the target it hits.
I'm not really familiar with <G's development process or how the pending questions thread ties into it, so I won't answer to that directly. I do think we've collectively examined enough evidence that there's no pressing need to address the question of whether hero character cards are hero cards, but I also think that the wording of the definitions and certain cards should be reviewed with that question in mind before the next printing of the manual.
Redirection is a bit tricky. Here is one way I think it could be handled is; cards like Stealth Bot, Lead From the Front, Alchemical Redirection, Divine Sacrifice, etc. would not be possible to used to redirect damage from or to an isolated hero. Smoke Bombs wouldn't redirect if the Isolated Hero is the lowest or Wraith is the one Isolated (unless she is the lowest), but Smoke Bombs would be able to redirect damage from the lowest to the highest even if the highest is isolated. However cards like Driving Mantis, Amulet of the Elder Gods, Synaptic Interruption, etc. would allow a isolated hero (or unisolated to a isolated) to redirect damage to a unisolated hero. I don't see anyone doing that though.
So Basically redirecting damage from a isolated hero would not work, but to a isolated hero would. That being said, I don't think I would actually play it like that, but I can see how it could be agrued that it would.
But in that sense you have an isolated hero effect targeting, or being targeted by, a non isolated heros effect (in this case redirection). So I agree I wouldn't play it that way either.
But, the redirection effect is targeting the damage, and if the damage is coming from a villain target or an environment target, is it really a hero's effect?
My thinking is that if a target is isolated from you, you can't redirect damage to it anymore than you could do anything else to that target. For redirecting from a an isolated target, nearly all redirection has criteria on what the original target was (generally a hero target). In these cases I would not allow you to redirect damage from a target you are isolated from either. The exceptions are Wrest the Mind and Divine Sacrifice which just redirect damage from a source regardless of target. So I would rule that those two effects are only affecting the source and what they redirect to, and continue to work if the original target is isolated from them.
Also a note on Smoke Bombs: For me Smoke Bombs would even ignore the isolated hero for the purposes of determining highest and lowest hero HP. So if Haka had the highest HP but was isolated, then smoke bombs would redirect to the next highest HP hero target.
Yes. The redirection is specifically a hero effect thats coming from a hero card.
Redirection is not affecting the instance of damage. It is actually just changing the inital target for that instance of damage. That is why Driving Mantis and Pipe Wrench work the way that they do. Consider Wrench, Mantis and Harmony are in play. Fixer Strikes himself for 1+1+1=3-1(wrench DR) = 2. This is low enough to trigger the redirection from Mantis. So now Fixer chooses a new target so he chooses the boss. Based on the rulings we have, after you redirect damage, all +/- damage modifiers get re-evaluated for the new target. Fixer would then Strike the boss for 3 damage assuming it does not have DR.
If redirection was targeting the instance of damage instead of altering just the end target, there would be no reaon to reasses the modifiers. Thats why things like Smoke Bombs redirection effect have a separate clause that deals with the instance of damage specifically.
So for Isolated hero, if you are isolated, you can not use your redirection effect to target another hero. If you are a normal hero using a redirection effect, you can not choose an isolated hero as a target for a heros redirection effect. If Smoke Bombs is out and an Isolated hero (thats not wraith) is the lowest or highest, Smoke Bombs would not even consider them in its HP calculation as I would find that in direct contradiction to the text on Isolated Hero
[quote="dwetuski"]
But, the redirection effect is targeting the damage, and if the damage is coming from a villain target or an environment target, is it really a hero's effect?
[/quote]
I meant "is the damage really a hero's effect", not "is the redirection really a hero's effect".
[quote="Foote"]
Redirection is not affecting the instance of damage. It is actually just changing the inital target for that instance of damage.
[/quote]
You don't consider changing the target of some damage to be affecting that damage?
No because the target is not a function of the damage, where as the damage is very much dependant on the target.
Redirection effects only change the target. The particular instance of damage is not being effected or altered (unless it is coming from Smoke Bombs which specifically alter the instance of damage in a separate clause). Because the instance of damage is independant from the redirection effect, it allows the damage modifiers to be reassesed for the new target.
It really is a matter of what the effect is acting on. Redirection acts on the target, not the damage going to the target. It would be like picking up and moving a road to change the direction of a car instead of picking the car up itself if that analogy is helpful.
Okay, I think I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure, so please tell me if I have it wrong.
Instead of an instance of damage having the 4 properties (amount, type, source, target), you're saying that it only has the 2 properties (amount, type). And, that each target gains the property "is a target of the current instance of damage" when that damage is being dealt and then loses that property immediatly afterwards... so therefore a redirection affect doesn't change the value of the damage's "target" property, but changes the properties of the would have been target by removing the "is a target..." property and also affects the new target by adding the "is a target..." property?
I think you can still look at damage having 4 properties if you want to view it that way. There is the base amount (the damage before modifiers), type, source (the thing that is actually dealing the damage), and the target (where the damage is being delt to).
Of those 4, redirection effects act on the Target portion. Base damage, type, and source do not change and are uneffected. And again I will point out that Smoke Bombs has a separate clause that actually does modify the base damage during the redirect. [Redacted] also has a similar redirection ability that comes with a separate clause to modify the base damage.
I make the distinction of base damage as a property because modifiers to that base damage are determined on a target by target basis. Imagine the table as a graphic user interface for a computer. You decide you want to deal damage. In my head I picture me taking my mouse and highlighting each legal target individually, seeing what the damage "would be" if I attacked them. That is the step where you assess modifiers (and possibly "would be delt damage" type trigger conditions take effect, like redirection). Redirecting changes the target, so I must "deselect" my old target, highlight my new target, use the base damage to re-calculate modifiers, and press the big red button that Tommy Lee Jones told me never to press.
Each instance of damage is only ever dealt to a single target. A card that says to deal damage to 3 targets actually creates 3 separate instances of damage. Each of those 3 instance of damages happens at a different time and triggers its own set of increase/decrease/redirect effects. Also, if one of those instances of damage destroys the source, any further instances of damage that the source would have dealt will never happen.
I was just trying to understand what you meant by this post:
But, I think I just got confused by your car/road example. If you mean for a car and a road to represent an instance of damage and its target, it's confusing because a target is a single, specific card, but a road is a path from one place to the next, i.e., from a starting point (the source) to a destination (the target), and a car travelling the path of that road travels from the starting point (the source) to the destination (the target). So, I'm not sure what you mean for them to represent.
Although, now I think that I may have confused you with my wording in the post that you quoted in your post that confused me. I think we need to clearly distinguish between the target as a card, and the selection of that target as a property of the damage, which I guess is what you were trying to do with the user interface target selction example?
I think we both agree that redirection effects change the target selection of the damage, but I don't think they affect the target, meaning a physical card with hp that was selected as the target for the damage and is not selected after the redirect effect selects a new target. In my mind, in order for something to be affected, that means something about it has to change. Since the physical card that damage gets redirected away from does not take any damage or trigger any effects of taking damage, or change in any other way that I'm aware of, I think that physical card target is not affected, which satisfies Isolated Hero's critera that it can't be affected.
Well see there is the thing. The target, in my mind, IS being affected by the Redirect. How? If there was no redirect, that target would have taken damage resulting in HP loss. Redirecting affected that target by allowing it to keep its HP at the expense of the HP of another target.
Sorry if the road/car example was confusing. I was thinking that the road is the path the damage travels from point A to point B and that the damage was a car. Redirection moves the road, so to speak, so that the road now points to Point C instead of point B.
My GUI example is just an illustration of how redirection is acting on the chosen target of the damage instead of acting on the other facets of the damage component, if the target is even a facet of damage to begin with, as I am not 100% sold on that point.
I see, so because the game state in which the target would not take damage because of the redirect is different from the game state in which the target would take damage if the redirect were prevented, you consider it a change and therefore an effect. I would agree with you if the state in which the target would take damage were to actually occur, but in order for that to happen, Isolated Hero would have to prevent the redirect. So, in other words, in order to justify the view that Isolated Hero prevents the redirect, we have to assume that Isolated Hero would prevent the redirect in order for the state in which the target would take damage to occur, which is circular logic, and therefore invalid.
I see, so because the game state in which the target would not take damage because of the redirect is different from the game state in which the target would take damage if the redirect were prevented, you consider it a change and therefore an effect.
[/quote]
Yeah, makes sense.
[quote="dwetuski"]
I would agree with you if the state in which the target would take damage were to actually occur
[/quote]
So you agree
[quote="dwetuski"]
but in order for that to happen, Isolated Hero would have to prevent the redirect.
[/quote]
Isolated Hero has not been mentioned up to this point. Just that the redirect is an effect. It's an effect wether Isolated Hero exists or not. Entirely independantly.
[quote="dwetuski"]
So, in other words, in order to justify the view that Isolated Hero prevents the redirect, we have to assume that Isolated Hero would prevent the redirect in order for the state in which the target would take damage to occur, which is circular logic, and therefore invalid.
[/quote]
Nope, there's no circular logic in there. You just built a loop in your own head when there doesn't need to be one.
Step 2 is an effect. Now you seem to be arguing that it's an effect that doesn't actually effect something #1. We know this is not true because of the Amulet ruling. A character who can't take damage can't have the damage they wouldn't be taking in the first place redirected. The damage has to be happening to them, and then instead of physically putting the damage on them, it gets put on whatever it was redirected to.
Yes. That is what effects tend to do. They tend to alter the game states.
What? We were talking outside of Isolated Hero there and just about basic mechanics of Redirection.
No, in order to justify that Isolated Hero can prevent redirection you just read the text on the card. Have we forgotten about that?
Can we actually talk about real in game senarios here? Speaking in generalities does no one any good in a game with so many edge cases and complex interactions.
Bunker is Isolated. Unity also on the field, not Isolated, with Stealth Bot on the field. Bunker gets targeted for an instance of 3 damage. Is Stealth Bot a hero card? Yes. Can Stealth Both redirect damage from a hero to itself? Yes. Is Stealth Bots redirection effect coming from a hero card? Yes. Can Stealth Bot choose Bunker to redirect damage from? NO. Bunker can't be targeted by Stealth Bot to benefit from its effect. Says so right in the text of Isolated Hero.
Flip it. Unity is Isolated and Bunker is not. Bunker gets targeted for 3 damage. Again, Stealth Bot can not target Bunker as no effect coming from Unity or her deck can target other heros with their effects.
I think a question worth debating is how Smoke Bombs works when a Hero is Isolated.
Senario:
Bunker, Unity and Wraith are in play. Wraith is at full health. Unity has 15HP. Bunker is at 1HP and is Isolated. Wraith has Smoke Bombs in play. Horrid Skunk Ape starts to deal all targets 1 damage. Unity is chosen to be dealt damage first.
Question:
Bunker is the lowest HP hero, making it the target Smoke Bombs would usually help out. But Bunker can not be targeted by Smoke Bombs while he is Isolated. Does Unity, being the next lowest HP hero, become the eligable target for Smoke Bomb's to redirect from?
Or, does Smoke Bomb still recognize Bunker as the lowest HP hero and now rendered useless as it can not legaly resolve its effect?
Opinion:
I would say that, since Bunker is Isolated, it can not even be considered by Smoke Bombs when determining the lowest/highest HP targets. As far as the other Heros and their effects are concerned, it should be like Bunker is not even there with them at all.
But I find this question much more worthy of debate than whether or not you can sometimes use effects from another hero on an isolated hero even though the card expressly prohibits such a thing.
Well as I said above, I would resolve Smoke Bombs as though the isolated hero cards weren't even there. (or the other hero cards if Wraith is the isolated one). Otherwise it seems like they are affecting Smoke Bombs.
This falls under my general rule that when a card says 'target', I read it as though it added 'excluding the isolated hero's cards' or 'excluding other heros' cards' as appropriate.