Promo Infinitor and Captain Cosmic/Chrono-Ranger

Just played a solo game against advanced Tormented Ally Infinitor against Captain Cosmic, Best of Times Chrono-Ranger, The Adamant Sentinels, and Ra on the Mobile Defense Platform. Ran into some interesting rules questions that I had to resolve on my own.

1) Does Infinitor count as a Hero Character Card? If so, Captain Cosmic could play Energy Bracers on him to reduce damage dealt to him. I assumed no during the game.

2) If a Manifestation with a bounty attached to it gets placed under Infinitor, does the bounty get destroyed if the bounty states "When the target leaves play, destroy this card"? I assumed no, but I had the feeling it was yes after the game.

3) Does Infinitor also count as a Villain target? I assumed no (which was good for the Sentinels as they usually only hit villain targets), but I can't ignore that keyword "Villain" on Infinitor. I guessed he's technically still the Villain for the purposes of some environments (Rook City, for one), but he's still only a hero target.

For those who were curious, the heroes won quite handily by Infinitor killing all of his Manifestations in one fell swoop of Whispers of Oblivion with each hero in double digit HP (including the Sentinels).

1) Not sure about this one, I am go with no until I hear otherwise.

2) Yes, as it's no longer a Target when it goes under Infinitor

3) I'd say he's no longer a Villain Target, but he is a Villain Character Card.

Yeah, the targets with bounties left play when they went under Infinitor.

As for Infinitor, I think that:

Infinitor, like any main villain card, is both a “character card” and a “villain card.” He is a character card because of the style of card (double-sided), and he is a villain card because his card says “villain” right on it. He’s also a target because he has health, so he’s a “villain target.” Nothing in his rules said he is no longer such a thing.

Tormented Hero Infinitor is also a “hero target,” because his rules say so right there. That’s only true on one side.

By the combination of the first two points, Tormented Hero Infinitor is also a “hero character card.”

So, you can totally put that Energy Bracer on him, but Positive Energy also deals him damage.

Except that we know the two points aren’t combined by the Operative. The Operative is a villain card, a villain target, and a character card. However, she is not a villain character card.

He is only a hero target and still listed as a villain on the card.  He would not be Hero Character Card

#1:  From the rulebook:

Hero Character Card:  The main card for a hero.  Heroes have character cards, which list the Maximum HP of the Hero and their innate power on the front, and their incapacitated abilities on the back.

Villain Character Cards:  The main cards for a Villain.  Villains have Character Cards which list the maximum HP of the Villain as well as the setup, gameplay, and advanced rules for that specific Villain.

All rules carry the caveat "Unless otherwise stated" but in this case Infinitor does not state otherwise, and so must be considered a Villain Character card.

#2:  Even if a card does not leave play, but instead ceases to be a target, it counts as the target leaving play.

#3:  I'd go with no.  He should be a Villain target, as he is a target and a villain card.  However, his card states he is a hero target, and not "also" a hero target.  So this wholly depends on whether a card can be a villain and hero target at the same time, I would go with no.  

 

Sadly his hero target side doesn't have any interesting interactions with Sub-Zero Atmosphere.

Well Sub Zero Atmosphere could lead to a win caused by Infinitor taking out the last Manifestation before he plays another card.  

I guess I buy the argument that he’s not a Hero Character Card. But,

I don’t think there’s any reason why “villain target” and “hero target” would be mutually exclusive. Rather, I think Infinitor is supposed to be both. He’s fighting himself.

But isn't The Dreamer a Villain target even though she's a "hero?" Surely, the same logic carries over to Infinitor.

Dreamer carries no unusual statuses.  She is a villain card, a villain character card and a villain target.

As for Villain target and Hero Target, there are a lot of really wierd interactions that can go on there, and the differences would be wierd.

For example If he is a hero and villain target Demoralize will hit him but Cold Snap won't.  A lot of cards like that, also Unity's volatile parts and shockwave will hit infinitor if he counts as a villain, lots of wierdness.

Given how many cards and effects specify "non-hero" or "non-villain," it reads to me like a card can't be both. Reading him as both a villain target and a hero target makes him immune to all those effects, which doesn't seem right.

He is a hero target but he is still a villain character card.    So anything hitting hero targets would affect him but anything hitting villain targets would not.   I would consider similar to how you would treat a Construct or Mechanical Golem for what targets get hit by an affect.  

I feel comfortable with: Infinitor is a villain character card and a hero target, but not a hero character card nor a villain target. That would seem to fit most with the theme/intent/mechanics.

Side question: did the promo villains not get playtested? This seems like the kind of ambiguity that would have been cleared up quickly with playtesting.

 

They get playtested, but most of the time we assume things, or get answers that are quasi-official, or we are told to play with both and see if it causes trouble, then we come to a concensus that "A" works better than "B" and never get an official ruling.

Very rarely do we get official rulings in playtesting, since things can change so much.  Several of the official rulings we do get end up being reversed or become irrelevant as mechanics change.

Ah, got it.

When we've played variant Infinitor, we've assumed Infinitor is a villain character card and both a hero and villain target, but not a hero character card.

Just to confuse things further. :wink:

I haven't seen any reason to assume a card can't be both a hero target and a villain target. I think there are assumptions some of us have made on this, but we have no evidence one way or another. Until we get official confirmation, we should play it the way we think is the most fun.  :sunglasses:

Personally, I think that allowing for it opens some interesting design space, as this character shows. He's going to be hit by everything the heroes throw at villain targets and everything the villains (his manifestations and one-shots) throw at the heroes, making him far more challenging than if he's just a hero target and not a villain target. It also makes for interesting decisions: Does Tempest really want to use his base power, when it will hit their "ally"?

I'll happily accept being wrong, if that's what official word comes down as. But for now I'm going to keep playing him as both. :slightly_smiling_face:

 

We should have an answer once it's in the video game at worst.  Since this promo didn't really come along with any particular set I'm not sure when it would be part of it.

Yeah that's actually what I originally assumed the one time I played against him—that would make his function similar to the Dreamer in many ways—but there were a few interactions/card effects that just felt wrong to me thematically. I think Tempest's shackles were available, and Infinitor, supposedly an active "ally" in this scenario kept that card from being useful because Tempest would end up targeting him. But I suppose there are also ways of reimagining that narrative, and embracing the challenge. So…

 

:+1:

Also, this whole thing: re: "non-hero targets." We decided there was no issue with Squall, even if Infinitor was both hero & villain target, because being a hero target makes it logically impossible for him to be a "non-hero target." Right?

Ha! Well, . You'd think I'd know better by now not to post without looking at the actual card.

You are absolutely correct. I was thinking "villain targets", but of course it's "non-hero targets", so it's not an issue. (But you get my point. ) Thanks!