Question: I have a Explosiuve Wagon in play. The wagon grants +1 damage while on the battlefield. Someone blows it up. When destroyed, the wagon deals two Fire damage and two Projectile damage. I'm not sure where the wagon is when the damage is done: is it still in play, or is it already in the trash? Does the wagon deal 4 damage (2 fire damage + 2 projectile damage = 4 total) to everyone or 6 ( [2 + 1 fire damage] + [2+1projectile damage] = 3 fire + 3 projectile = 6).
Assumed Answer: I assume it will deal 4 damage to everything: Becuas the wagon is no longer in play when it does damage, the damage buff does not work becuase it's not there.
Question 2: I have an explosive wagon and Sherrif Pratt in play. Prat is at his full HP of 7. Pratt take s1 less for each cover. WHen the wagon blows up, does pratt take 4 damage (2 fire + 2 projecticle = 4), or 6 damage ( [2 + 1 fire damage] + [2+1projectile damage] = 3 fire + 3 projectile = 6).
Assumed Answer: Pratt will take i tall due to the wagon not being there and there being no other cover, pratt will have no damage reduction.
My main quetion is: is the wagon still in play when it blows up?
For Question 1, I'm pretty sure the wagon's damage bonus doesn't apply, so 4 points all round. If both wagons are in place, 6.
For Question 2, Pratt will take 4 damage. I believe that the wagon isn't there, so he gets no cover but there isn't a damage bonus. However, if you made the case that the wagon is there, both the damage bonus and the damage reduction for cover would apply, so both damages would be (2+1-1).
When Shattered Timelines first came out, I posted a quick report on how these bits of cover did me in. The discussion from it might help:
I think that when a card is destroyed, it in fact stays in play until any effects are resolved, then moves to the trash. There was a lot of that notion in the thread Ronway had posted about rule questions. It's a shame he took it down. There was a lot of good information there. /sigh
Yea, but it says "WHen destroyed". I think that the damage is 4 but that's my magic the gathering side talking: When destruction effects appen it happens from the graveyard.
Two seperate games have different meanings for similar words. My magic experience has totally shaped how I initially interperet rules, but that is a dangerous habit as I have found. If a card has an "on destruction" effect on it, it stays in play in order to be able to resolve its effect before moving to the trash.
There is little logic in "well the rules were like this for game A so they must be the same for totally different game B"
Kind of yes, but not really. The effect triggers upon destruction of the card. All trigger effects always happen immediatly upon the trigger condition being met. So the effect would in fact take place before the part where you move the "destroyed" card to the trash.
Again. This is not Magic. You can not assume that because it works for one that it will work for the other.
Plus Ronway talked to Christopher (not Chris as I have been told in the past) already. If the thread was still viewable, I would have directed you to it. I think it is pretty safe to say that this is an "official" ruling at this point.
Hang on…so when an Explosive Wagon is destroyed, it does do 2+1 and 2+1 damage (assuming no other buffs) to everything, and not a straight 2 and 2? I seem to recall a thread a while back in which someone asked about what happens when both wagons are present and one destroys the other - the conclusion was that the first wagon is only buffed by the second one (which is still in play at that point), but then the second wagon's damage is completely unbuffed as the other wagon has gone. So 2+1 and 2+1 damage for the first wagon, and 2 and 2 damage for the second.
Well a lot of our conclusions have proven wrong. We just need to adjust to the official rulings from our previous forum consensus.
If the second wagon is destroyed by the first, you would immediatly resolve the second wagons destruction trigger. Since the first wagon is still in play waiting to resolve the rest of its destruction effect, the second wagon will hit all targets for (2+2)+(2+2) then move to the trash. Now the first wagon can continue its own destruction effects, but since the 2nd wagon has now moved to the trash, it would continue on as (2+1)+(2+1) as normal.
This is the only way I can interpret this interaction with the new rulings we have to work off of.
As I see it either the wagon is there, or it isn't. If it's there, then it hasn't blown up. If it's blown up, then it doesn't give the plus 1. Pictures of Occam's razor shaving Schrodinger's Cat must be worth something in these considerations.
Perhaps the infamous answers to questions need some additional time that the >G folks might not have, right now.
The rulings provided by Ronway strongly indicate that if a card has an "upon destruction" effect, the card stays in play while the effect resolves and is moved to the trash after completing. The rational behind that is obviously that a source of damage must be in play to deal said damage. That's why you can kill a Psi Weaver in the middle of attacking everything to trash it and thus interrupt its action.
Given all of that, I believe I described how that interaction would resolve a few posts up.
That does raise a sort of weird situation where you could have the Wagon blowing up, then hit Bee Bot which would destroy the Wagon setting off another round of damage?
Having a single Wagon potentially blowing up 4 times in a villian's face and only once on the heroes is kind of hilarious. Someone write the continuity editor for this comic a stern letter!
We had something similar in a game yesterday. It was a mix of Ambuscade and Silver Gulch. Let me see if I can remember it. Apologies since I'm going by memory.
Scholar played the card that let Nightmist play a card from the top of her deck. She played Oblivion. That set off Sonic MIne. Exp Wagon was in play.
That did 2 damage to each Hero. Except it was 4 because Charged Attack that adds +1 to all damage and +1 for the EW. (I don't have the Ambuscade ongoing here, I thought it added +1. Anyhoo, if it wasn't, it was still 2-3, right?)
Then Charged Attack did 2 (i.e., 3 damage) to all targets because the Sonic Mine Device was destroyed.
That 3 damage destroyed another device. Which then inflicted three device on everyone again, which destroyed another device.
At that point, the EWagon had taken enough damage to blow up.
At that point, all Heroes were down except Unity, and she had two hit points. She incapped shortly thereafter...
I'm thinking BeeBot was involved in that mess, too. But that may have been the next game when we tried to work out someone hitting Matthew, with the Cactus in play...
If this is the official ruling now, I quite like it. In fact, when Ambuscade was first introduced, I assumed this is how it worked, because how could a card act after it’s destroyed? I was simply told by many people that it simply acted after destruction. I didn’t like it as it wasn’t as simple and consistent, and recently I even attempted to create a system to allow such destroyed cards to act after destruction, but having destruction responding cards act immediately prior to destruction simplifies everything.
Technically, cards under Savage Mana are destroyed more than once before getting to the trash, but I agree with what I interpret as the spirit of your response – if a card's triggered effect upon being destroyed can't (shouldn't be able to?) lead to that card being destroyed again.
So a destroyed Wagon stays on the table and is still a valid target but can no longer be the recepient of a 'destroy' action? Or it can still receive the 'destroy' action but the When Destroyed trigger will not happen just like redirection triggers only happen once?
I like the idea that if you manage to destroy a card which is currently responding to it's own destruction, it gets fully destroyed with no further reaction and the current one is canceled. Thus if wagons are destroyed, they first start to deal damage. If they destroy a Bee Bot this way, and Unity uses this to destroy the wagons, then the wagons are destroyed with no self reaction, and any damage it had not yet dealt would be cancelled.
I'm not trying to say this is the way it works, just that I like the idea.