yes i understood that interpretation. But it seems we have two conflicting possibilities that require clarification on when exactly a card goes into the trash. Granted, the chances of a instant hero-loss this way are so astoundingly slim that it's comical to be arguing about this... but nevertheless, I don't think we solve this one without a ruling.
don't they have to go to the trash immediately after being resolved? Otherwise the Ennead wouldn't work properly.
Yes, after being fully resolved.
If the card itself says play a card then you interrupt whatever you are doing and resolve the new card before continuing on with the old card, the same way it happens for every other interaction in the game e.g. The Ultimate Target 'interrupting' a villain hitting multiple targets, after the first hit Chrono-ranger gets to use a power. Similarly, after the 'new' card has been fully resolved, then go back to the old card and check to see if it has any more instructions, if none, put it in the trash.
Yes, but they don't resolve until the card they caused to be played gets resolved.
Why?
Is there a ruling that says this? Or do we assume it. If a card says to play a card, that is not a response, it does not interrupt the card's effect, it is an effect of the card, and the effect resolves the instant the next card hits the field. Upon its effects being resolved it goes to the trash, and upon the new card entering play the text is activated.
I believe we do have a ruling that cards that respond to a card entering play activate before the text of the card that triggered it. So wouldn't a card that leaves play when that card enters play leave play before the text is resolved? It seems the same timing to me.
Bolded a bit in your reply to explain.
So, as we accept that cards entering play enter play before they are played, play cannot mean entering play. So what does "play" mean in this context? It must mean enters play and activates. If we accept that it means enters "play and activates the card's effects", until all tohse effects are activated the "play" action is not completed. As the "play action is not completed, the part of the previous card that says "Play the top card of the villain deck" is not is also not completed and the card cannot be discarded.
There is the logic to the ruling, at least as I understand it.
So, as we accept that cards entering play enter play before they are played, play cannot mean entering play. So what does "play" mean in this context?
I don't get what you mean here. To play a card means to put it into play. A card is not played before it is played. It is put into play, then the text is activated. The text activating does not stop things that react to a card being played from activating, and what is the original card being put into the appropriate trash but an effect that happens when the text of the card is resolved.
If the action of playing the card was not completed until the text resolves a destruction one-shot would not be responded to by the card it is trying to destroy that acts when a card is played. Yet the ruling is that the reaction happens when the card enters play, before it resolves its text.
A one-shot does not enter the trash until its text is resolved, but with the current definition of what constitutes a card being played (entering play but before text is resolved) it would seem that run & gun should enter the trash before the card it plays is resolved.
Sorry, can you clarify this bit I don't think I understand what you are saying.
I think you are saying that if a card destroys another card it doesn't react until the complete card text resolves, is that what you are saying?
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Actually can you give an example using cards we all know about, that might make it clearer (say grappling hook and explosives wagon?)
I am not sure if I agree with this. A card entering play immediately has its text resolved. There aren't two distinct steps. Instead, there is a rule that you resolve cards in the order they are played. So in this situation, you have 2 cards that act at the same time, the One-Shot immediately triggers when it enters play, as well as a trigger when a card is played, like PEF. You aren't playing the trigger first because there are 2 distinct steps, you are playing it first because we have 2 abilites that would trigger at the same time, and you go in the order they were played.
This also explains why you still have the full effect of a card when you play a One-Shot that destroys that card. Both trigger at the same time, therefore you first resolve the card that was out first (not the One-Shot).
Therefore, here, you would play a card, resolve its inherent trigger of resolving the cards effect, then finish resolving the first card and move it into the trash.
EDIT: I know there have been threads that say you play the card "face down," perform all triggers, then turn the card face up. I just don't know how that can be solved with the Negative Energy Field ruling. The explanation I gave is how arenson9 views the whole system (sorry i didn't quote him originally), and it seems to explain everything (except Fowls+HTR).
Therefore, here, you would play a card, resolve its inherent trigger of resolving the cards effect, then finish resolving the first card and move it into the trash.
You don't resolve the first card, the first card is resolved the instant the text on the card is completed. When Run and Gun plays a card, as soon as that card enters play, it is resolved. It requires no other action, it has fulfilled its text, it has resolved.
The only question is of the timing of it going to the trash. Does Run and Gun resolving interrupt, like a response, the activation of the card it played? Do the effects count as simultaneous effects of different cards (in which case Run and Gun would be resolved first) or does the resolution of Run and Gun sit and wait until the card it plays is done, then get to go to the trash.
I'm not saying that it necessarily must be this way, but the question has gained traction with current rulings and needs to be asked.
The question of whether or not a basic rule of gameplay has timing like an effect of a card, or if it has a seperate timing is important, and I haven't found a ruling that covers it.
Actually can you give an example using cards we all know about, that might make it clearer
IL Vigilence and Grappling hook. You play Grappling Hook to destroy Vigilence. Vigilence deals you 2 damage for playing a card then is destroyed.
Vigilence responds to a card being played. Grappling Hook is counted as being played, and triggers the appropriate response before any of its text is activated. https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/iron-legacys-vigilance-4063 is a recent discussion of this.
Following the rulings made it seems that a card is counted as being played before its text resolves, and that anything that triggers upon the card being played happens before the text resolves. That makes sense to me, because the act of putting a One Shot into play causes the activation of the text, as well as the activation of any other effects that trigger when that card is played, like IL's Vigilence, or in this case the resolution and removal to the trash of Run and Gun. Simultaneous effects are resolved in card play order, and Run and Gun was there first.
Since Run and Gun is only playing the card (at that stage in timing), once that card is played Run and Gun is resolved and by rule is to be sent to the appropriate trash. It seems to me that that effect, like IL's Vigilence would then occur, and then you would continue on to resolve the text of the next card, which if it were a second run and gun would deal damage then shuffle the trash into the deck before playing the top card.
The real question is whether basic rules, like when the text is resolved or that the text of a one-shot is activated when played have timing like card effects, or even of their own kind (since the two effects we are debating are both effects of the rule book). I think we need an actual ruling on this.
So let's start at the beginning. Is the order the following"
1) Play a card.
2) Triggers on cards being played
3) Card (text) enters play
If this is true, then when a card says play a card, it is completeld on step #1, is resolved, and goes to the trash. However, we know for a fact that this isn't true. The Negative Energy Field ruling says that it can hit the target that was just played. This wouldn't be possible unless its hp is in the game. Now you could agrue that hp and the text are different, but I will bring up the point that Spiff brings up constantly, "where has it ever been said that a card and its text come into play at different times?" Furthermore, can HTR hit a card with damage reduction or immunity? If you say that the text comes in later, then no, but this doesn't make much sense.
So now we have to understand what is going on. Every card has 2 types of text, static modifires (name, hp, type, damage increase/decrease, etc.) and trigers. All static modifiers are in place all the time, and come into effect the moment they enter play. Triggers always have something that triggers them. With Equipment and Ongoings, the trigger will be written explicitly, with One-Shots, the trigger is being played. Keep in mind though, that if triggers happen at the same time, you go in card play order.
So let's say you have 1 hp left with NEF in play, and you want to play Suture Self. Here is how it will look:
1) Play Suture.
2) Look for triggers, we have two: 1) Suture, 2) NEF. They will both trigger now, so we go in card play order.
2a) NEF hits for 1.
2b) Would have been Suture, but poor Wraith is incapped.
Now we know that trigers interrupt all actions, so inherently, the card itself has its own triggers and needs to finish resolving before the first card goes to the trash. We never see anywhere that you delay a trigger to resolve a different action.
And it is resolving an action. As part of the nature of One-Shots, it has 3 elements to it.
1) Put it in play.
2) Triggers the text.
3) Move to the trash.
Since this is inherent to every One-Shot, you do not need to say "move to the trash" on every single card (look at a whole bunch of Environment cards for when it does need to say "destroy this card" because they aren't One-Shots). This is the nature of One-Shots. Also, don't get hung up on it saying "move to the trash" and not destroy, because the cards aren't destroyed, and, therefore, not affected by Fixed Point, Ammo Drop, etc. Therefore, "moving to the trash" is the final step of the card, and its resolution. You do not resolve the card until the card it played is resoved, which includes playing the card and activating its text.
On a completely separate note, I am not sure why everyone is interepretting "play a card" as defining a separate step. There are sevearl good reasons why it is worded this way, and it is to distinguish from other cases, not to define a step.
"play a card from the top" vs "take from trash" - Here the emphasis is on where the card is coming from.
"play a card" vs "reveal a card" - This purposely gets around certain rules (e.g. Timeshift).
"play a card" vs "entering play" - "Entering play" is a more general and inclusive term. If HTR only said "when a target is played" it would not hit anything coming from the trash. I think the difference here is to be more inclusive, not to define a separate step.
Pydro, I don't actually know if we agree or not.
So let's start at the beginning. Is the order the following"
1) Play a card.
2) Triggers on cards being played
3) Card (text) enters play
I disagree that a text doesn't enter play, I say it does, but it has to wait its turn to act. The text has to be activated. HP, Targets, all these static modifiers that don't have to be activated of course are live as soon as they hit the field, which is why the >G guys have to reconsider Hairtrigger vs. Fowl cards, since the current rulings would cause the fowl card not to play anyother fowl cards when Hairtrigger kills it. The target enters play, triggering its text to activate and Hairtrigger, since Hairtrigger was out first it activates first and kills the Fowl card. As we know when you destroy a card mid-activation it doesn't get to finish. The fact that this is a problem they have to look into pretty much validates this process.
Just like any card order ruling, all the text is in play, and it all qeues up to act in the order the cards entered play.
So let's say you have 1 hp left with NEF in play, and you want to play Suture Self. Here is how it will look:
1) Play Suture.
2) Look for triggers, we have two: 1) Suture, 2) NEF. They will both trigger now, so we go in card play order.
2a) NEF hits for 1.
2b) Would have been Suture, but poor Wraith is incapped.
I agree with this, I think it is pretty standard with current rulings.
And it is resolving an action. As part of the nature of One-Shots, it has 3 elements to it.
1) Put it in play.
2) Triggers the text.
3) Move to the trash.
Also agree with this. (although I use activate the text as trigger seems to lead to other conclusions)
Therefore, "moving to the trash" is the final step of the card, and its resolution. You do not resolve the card until the card it played is resoved, which includes playing the card and activating its text.
I don't know where this is coming from, it doesn't seem to follow from your arguments.
On a completely separate note, I am not sure why everyone is interepretting "play a card" as defining a separate step.
It is only a seperate step in the sense that when a card deals damage to every target each target being dealt damage is a seperate step.
It only matters because of the definitions, a card is played when it enters play, then its text activates. That is a seperate step for the purposes of resolving any effect that activates when a card enters play. The effects would be simultaneous and are resolved by card order.
My point here was a response to your comment about the card not being fully resolved. The card isn't fully resolved once another card is played, but rather it is fully resolved once it finishes its last inherent step, "moving to the trash." As with all other triggers, you completely resolve the previous once, before finishing the first one. If let's say there was another line after "play a card," you would still activate the card fully before going on to the next action. So too here, you fully resolve the card before going to the final step, "moving to the trash."
Maybe I am not understanding you. I thought you were saying the following:
We have 3 steps:
-
Play a card.
-
Triggers on "play a card"
-
Activate the original card.
Since these are 3 separate steps, when a card says play a villain card, it is completed after step one. So it would look like sometihng like this:
-
Play a card.
-
Discard original card.
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Triggers on "play a card"
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Activate the played card.
I was responding to this interpretation. I don't think it can work like this, because playing a card and its text activation would inherently be connected. In my opinion, there are 2 possible interpretations. 1) Playing a card and activating its text are intrinsically connected, so taht play a card = activate its text. If so, you would activate the text before discarding the original card, since its text of "play a card" wasn;t full resolved. 2) T he text is triggered on its own play. If the text is "triggered," you would still resolve the triggered ability before going to the last step of "moving to the trash," since we always stop play to fulfill triggers. (This makes the most sense.)
OK, I think I get our disagreement here.
My point here was a response to your comment about the card not being fully resolved. The card isn't fully resolved once another card is played, but rather it is fully resolved once it finishes its last inherent step, "moving to the trash."
To me the effect of moving to the trash is not from the card itself, but a static "on the board" effect from the rule book, so instead of being intrinsic to the card like an additional line of text, it is a response to the resolution of text that sends the card to the trash.
This is why I say it is a timing question that needs an official answer.
It can be seen as a trigger that responds to the resolution of the card, and thus would have interruption power, or like you argue the timing of an additional line of text that wouldn't interrupt at all, but wait in line to activate.
I can see it coming down both ways, but we don't have any ruling on the type of effect intfinsic rules have.
My argument is that a One-Shot coming into play activating its text and a One-Shot finished having effect going to the trash have the same origin for their happening, the rule book. It seems to me that they would have the same timing as any rulebook rule, which includes a target reaching 0hp being destroyed, which can take place in the middle of an action, interrupting a card text becasue its condition is reached.
We do this with Beebot and sonic mine all the time, a condition is reached that a target hits zero HP, and the rule book interrupts whatever else is happening and destroys that card. You can end up with multiple chains where sonic mine is triggered, and then beebot is triggered, etc.
So to a One-Shot entering play activating text is a rule-book trigger.
I argue that a One-Shot resolved going to the trash is the same timing, and would tie with the one-shot text activating, and resolve by card order.
Card order is irrelevant for Run and Gun (and any similar effects), as Run and Gun can't be considered to have finished resolving until the card played by it has fully resolved.
Turn 2, Four Heroes, Infinte Damage (three targets). Scholar, Ra, Absolute Zero, and Rook City Wraith in the Time Cataclysm.
Turn 1: Villain does their thing.
Turn 2: Scholar goes first and plays Don't Dismiss Anything (I think DDA doesn't depend on turn order)
Ra reveals Imbued Fire from his deck and puts it into play.
Absolute Zero reveals Isothermic Transducer and puts it into play.
Scholar reveals Proverbs and Axioms from his deck and puts it into play (I don't think P&A depends on turn order)
Note that Wraith has not used the effect from DDA, yet.
Scholar heals for 2.
Rook City Wraith takes three damage and uses her innate power to reveal Fixed Point from the Environment deck and put it into play.
Absolute Zero takes 3 damage to use a power. Imbue Fire changes it to fire and boosts it to 4.
Since AZ took 4 fire he now deals 1 target 4 cold. He chooses to hit himself again. Imbue Fire changes it to fire and boosts it to 5.
Since AZ took 5 fire he now deals 1 target 5 cold. He chooses to hit himself again. Imbue Fire changes it to fire and boosts it to 6.
Since AZ took 6 fire he now deals 1 target 6 cold. He chooses to hit himself again. Imbue Fire changes it to fire and boosts it to 7.
...
AZ keeps doing that even after he goes into the negative HP since Fixed Point keeps him alive. Once he gets a big enough blast ready he hits one target with it for like 1000 damage. He can then do the same thing with the damage he takes from his power and the damage he takes from Ra for a total of 3 targets.
Now that Proverbs and Axioms has resolved we finish the effect from Don't Dismiss Anything. Wraith reveals Grappling Hook from her deck and puts it into play destroying Fixed Point. The three targets and AZ vaporize in an isolated supernova.
Chuck in a second DDA and (with Ra and AZ playing damage-dealers) you can take out five targets, allowing you to ruin the Ennead.
You are correct, P&A is heroes choice as to order, I can't find any mistakes, so you win at least one timeline of the Multiverse.
To date, our shortest game was Legacy, Haka, Ra, and The Scholar against Ambuscade. It didn't go three rounds.
Yeah, does anyone have examples of their fastest real life game?